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Old 04-08-2013, 04:46 PM   #76
ShaqAttack3234
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Fouls are more likely to happen at the rim. But they are also less likely to happen from 16 feet out. And the net of that is minus 2 for Melo. Sorry...he takes 4 more shots from 16 feet out per game.

Man, you're thickheaded. They're not all that likely to happen away from the rim in general.

Quote:
And the shots at the rim are misleading because Melo often goes in out of control and throws the ball up just to get his own miss. But I won't even get into reality.


I've watched almost every Knick game this season, so I know a lot more about how Melo plays than you do. I said before that I've seen him do the Moses thing at times, but a lot of times, he goes up strong, gets hit, and doesn't get a call. He has an excellent second jump, so sometimes he scores anyway, but you're kidding yourself if you think Melo gets the same calls going to the rim as Durant does. Not even close.

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No, sorry, it's not about fga...it's about how many fga are you taking in which you can or try to draw a foul. Taking all the bad shots Melo and Kobe do...more than makes up for the increased fg attempts.

This has been covered more accurately with shots at the rim. You're just too dense to admit it.

Quote:
Durant could be more likely to be fouled on long shots...making the difference even bigger there. Not only does he take less, but he's more likely to draw a foul. Same could be said for mid range...etc.

Actually, mid-range is one of the few areas Melo has done a good job drawing fouls. Especially during his shooting slumps.

Quote:
How much better is Durant at drawing fouls? Quantify it. That seems to be missing from your analysis on what Durant does or doesn't deserve.

If he was getting to the line at the same rate he did last season, I wouldn't complain. Roughly once every 2.6 FGA instead of once every 1.9. You still haven't explained why Durant himself has seen such an increase despite not shooting any more at the rim, or inside 10 feet in general.
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Old 04-08-2013, 04:55 PM   #77
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Man, you're thickheaded. They're not all that likely to happen away from the rim in general.



I've watched almost every Knick game this season, so I know a lot more about how Melo plays than you do. I said before that I've seen him do the Moses thing at times, but a lot of times, he goes up strong, gets hit, and doesn't get a call. He has an excellent second jump, so sometimes he scores anyway, but you're kidding yourself if you think Melo gets the same calls going to the rim as Durant does. Not even close.



This has been covered more accurately with shots at the rim. You're just too dense to admit it.



Actually, mid-range is one of the few areas Melo has done a good job drawing fouls. Especially during his shooting slumps.



If he was getting to the line at the same rate he did last season, I wouldn't complain. Roughly once every 2.6 FGA instead of once every 1.9. You still haven't explained why Durant himself has seen such an increase despite not shooting any more at the rim, or inside 10 feet in general.

You can't answer a simple question. How much better is Durant at drawing fouls than Carmelo. Please quantify it. Because that has to go into the formula. In fact...it is the biggest factor.

I told you that Carmelo has a 1.6 shot attempt advantage at the rim. But he also takes 4 more shots from 16 feet and beyond. That has to factor in as well.

And obviously Durant is drawing fouls all over the place and not just at the rim...so the normal rules don't apply to him.

What you are too dense to comprehend is that even with 6 shots at the rim, you have to account for the other 16. And you have to determine how often Carmelo is trying to get fouled or even in a position to get fouled. Melo takes a lot of threes (2 more than Durant per game)...and doesn't try to draw contact on his jumper as often.

Also, what you are forgetting, is that you don't have to be shooting to get to the line. Durant plays 1.5 more minutes per game as well...that needs to be factored in.

Why can't you use basic logic. Even with the 1.6 shots at the rim advantage, you still have to determine how likely each player is to get fouled on the other shots. And...you have to factor in things like minutes played and how often they shoot tech / defensive 3 second free throws.

And then, the kicker, how much better is Durant at drawing fouls. You need to quantify this so we can factor that in. Because even just a 10% difference in ability in this area goes a long way.


Do you have a problem with Kobe taking more free throws or roughly the same amount as carmelo...despite carmelo taking more shots...including more shots at the rim? So Melo takes 1.6 more shots and takes more shots at the rim...yet he shoots less free throws. Do you have an issue with this?

Last edited by DMAVS41 : 04-08-2013 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 04-08-2013, 05:00 PM   #78
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by Quintilianus
Durant is the best scorer in the NBA, by a VERY large margin based on ABILITIES.
But he's a mental midget that can't take the role of a real leader


Good one
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Old 04-08-2013, 05:06 PM   #79
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

melo wud be putting up 10 more points a game if he got reffed like durant
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Old 04-08-2013, 05:06 PM   #80
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by KG215


Good one
That's a very sad true. Sad because I rooted for him since he came into the NBA, always loved his game even when people were calling him mr. 5/25.
He got so caught up in his stats and trying to be lebron, that he forgot that he's the best scorer in the NBA by a large margin. Of couse he's a guy that doesn't talk much, so naturally a show-off like westbrook who naturally wants to win and doesn't care about anything else eventually takes over as the leader of this team.
I realize you're a Durant fan, I too have very strong appreciation for his game throughout his career, but he's very weak mentally.
On the other hand, his path reminds me of lebron in some ways, so maybe he'll brake out of his weaknesses by meeting someone inferior to him mentally in the playoffs. I don't know who will that be, but it'll probably eventually happen
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Old 04-08-2013, 05:29 PM   #81
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by Quintilianus
That's a very sad true. Sad because I rooted for him since he came into the NBA, always loved his game even when people were calling him mr. 5/25.
He got so caught up in his stats and trying to be lebron, that he forgot that he's the best scorer in the NBA by a large margin. Of couse he's a guy that doesn't talk much, so naturally a show-off like westbrook who naturally wants to win and doesn't care about anything else eventually takes over as the leader of this team.
I realize you're a Durant fan, I too have very strong appreciation for his game throughout his career, but he's very weak mentally.
On the other hand, his path reminds me of lebron in some ways, so maybe he'll brake out of his weaknesses by meeting someone inferior to him mentally in the playoffs. I don't know who will that be, but it'll probably eventually happen
No, it's not. And no, he isn't.

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Originally Posted by bluechox2
melo wud be putting up 10 more points a game if he got reffed like durant
Really? 10 whole more PPG? He'd be averaging 38 PPG if he got reffed the same way as Durant? That's how big the discrepancy is between how Durant is reffed and how Carmelo's reffed?
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Old 04-08-2013, 05:38 PM   #82
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by KG215
No, it's not. And no, he isn't.


Really? 10 whole more PPG? He'd be averaging 38 PPG if he got reffed the same way as Durant? That's how big the discrepancy is between how Durant is reffed and how Carmelo's reffed?

Yes, Durant is a b1tch.
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Old 04-08-2013, 05:44 PM   #83
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

forget stats, just watch the games.

It's not about the amount of free throws, it's about fouls being called on the most minimal contacts, not even fouls.
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Old 04-08-2013, 06:00 PM   #84
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
You can't answer a simple question. How much better is Durant at drawing fouls than Carmelo. Please quantify it. Because that has to go into the formula. In fact...it is the biggest factor.



How can this be quantified without knowing what is going on inside the refs head? This isn't a skill that you can train, unless you consider acting a basketball skill. This is something that comes down to how the refs want to call it that particular day.
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Old 04-08-2013, 06:13 PM   #85
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

He's one of the best shooters I've ever seen. His other skills are meh but he's realllllllly coordinated
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Old 04-08-2013, 07:00 PM   #86
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
You can't answer a simple question. How much better is Durant at drawing fouls than Carmelo. Please quantify it. Because that has to go into the formula. In fact...it is the biggest factor.

Because that's an impossible thing to put an exact number on. It would be like saying one player is a better scorer and asking them to put a number on how much better.

If I had to, I'd say the difference between a 2.6 FGA/FTA ratio and a 2.9 FGA/FTA ratio. Around there.

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I told you that Carmelo has a 1.6 shot attempt advantage at the rim. But he also takes 4 more shots from 16 feet and beyond. That has to factor in as well.

Not much, or not nearly as much as shots at the rim.

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And obviously Durant is drawing fouls all over the place and not just at the rim...so the normal rules don't apply to him.

Again, Melo does a better job drawing fouls on mid-range shots with pump fakes than he does around the rim, relative to how common one is or the other. He did this throughout his shooting slump.

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What you are too dense to comprehend is that even with 6 shots at the rim, you have to account for the other 16. And you have to determine how often Carmelo is trying to get fouled or even in a position to get fouled. Melo takes a lot of threes (2 more than Durant per game)...and doesn't try to draw contact on his jumper as often.

You've tried this argument throughout the thread, it didn't work then, and it doesn't work now.

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Also, what you are forgetting, is that you don't have to be shooting to get to the line. Durant plays 1.5 more minutes per game as well...that needs to be factored in.

Melo is almost always on the court for the later minutes in the quarter when other teams will be in the penalty, and he takes his teams technicals just like Durant does. 1.5 minutes per game won't greatly alter the amount of technicals each player shoots.

Quote:
Why can't you use basic logic. Even with the 1.6 shots at the rim advantage, you still have to determine how likely each player is to get fouled on the other shots. And...you have to factor in things like minutes played and how often they shoot tech / defensive 3 second free throws.

Again, you're much less likely to get fouled on shots even in mid-range than you are at the rim so you can't pretend this is equal.

Quote:
And then, the kicker, how much better is Durant at drawing fouls. You need to quantify this so we can factor that in. Because even just a 10% difference in ability in this area goes a long way.

I did about as well as anyone can put a number on such things. But you can't say someone is 10% better at drawing fouls. How would you even come up with something like that? All I know is that Durant gets officiated differently than Melo. I can't remember seeing another player get as many questionable calls as Durant does.

Quote:
Do you have a problem with Kobe taking more free throws or roughly the same amount as carmelo...despite carmelo taking more shots...including more shots at the rim? So Melo takes 1.6 more shots and takes more shots at the rim...yet he shoots less free throws. Do you have an issue with this?

Not really. Kobe probably has the best pump fake and footwork in the game. Although The difference between Kobe and Melo is actually 1.3 shots at the rim. I would say that Melo is the most disrespected out of the major superstars. It use to be Yao, now it's Melo.
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Old 04-08-2013, 07:02 PM   #87
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Old 04-08-2013, 07:21 PM   #88
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

I actually think Durant goes to the line about as much as he should. Guys like Kobe, Melo, and (especially)Lebron should be going more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
You are biased because you because the margins in this debate are incredibly small.

The margins aren't all that small though. For example, comparing Lebron to Durant, you're looking at a ratio of .388 vs .525. Lebron with Durant's ft rate would put up 1.84 more ppg, and that's not even taking into account the fact that Lebron is probably fouled even more than Durant. Lebron would be putting up 29 ppg if he were getting called the way Durant is. That doesn't seem all that small to me.
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:13 PM   #89
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Because that's an impossible thing to put an exact number on. It would be like saying one player is a better scorer and asking them to put a number on how much better.

If I had to, I'd say the difference between a 2.6 FGA/FTA ratio and a 2.9 FGA/FTA ratio. Around there.



Not much, or not nearly as much as shots at the rim.



Again, Melo does a better job drawing fouls on mid-range shots with pump fakes than he does around the rim, relative to how common one is or the other. He did this throughout his shooting slump.



You've tried this argument throughout the thread, it didn't work then, and it doesn't work now.



Melo is almost always on the court for the later minutes in the quarter when other teams will be in the penalty, and he takes his teams technicals just like Durant does. 1.5 minutes per game won't greatly alter the amount of technicals each player shoots.



Again, you're much less likely to get fouled on shots even in mid-range than you are at the rim so you can't pretend this is equal.



I did about as well as anyone can put a number on such things. But you can't say someone is 10% better at drawing fouls. How would you even come up with something like that? All I know is that Durant gets officiated differently than Melo. I can't remember seeing another player get as many questionable calls as Durant does.



Not really. Kobe probably has the best pump fake and footwork in the game. Although The difference between Kobe and Melo is actually 1.3 shots at the rim. I would say that Melo is the most disrespected out of the major superstars. It use to be Yao, now it's Melo.

So it all amounts to this.

You think Melo is disrespected. You think Kobe shooting more free throws despite shooting less at the rim and less overall doesn't matter because you think Kobe is great at drawing fouls.

That isn't enough mate. And you don't think any of the evidence to the contrary is acceptable because...well, you don't like it.

Guess what. You are not making any sense. You can't just talk about fga and shots at the rim without understanding if a said player is as good as the other at drawing fouls.

Here are the facts. Melo shoots over 4 more shots from long range a game. Melo also throws the ball wildly at the backboard on drives to get his own tip in. Which does two things;

1. It sometimes prevents from calling a foul because he's out of control
2. It inflates his shots at the rim because he's getting credit for a shot every time he tips it in. He does at least once a game. So that 1.6 shots at the rim logically becomes more like .6 if we are being fair, but of course we aren't because you are so biased

Then we get to Kobe. You have no issue with Kobe vs Melo...yet it is very similar. Why? Because you are biased against Durant...it's so obvious.

In Durant vs Kobe. Kobe shoots 2.3 more long range shots than Durant a game. He shoots .6 more shots at the rim. So that is a 1.7 difference. Kobe only shoots 2.5 more shots overall than Durant. Durant most likely takes more technical free throws as well. The margin is incredibly small...and we haven't even factored in the most important thing...

Durant is better at drawing fouls than Kobe.

You argument is flawed and biased and your refusal to acknowledge that the two guys you keep supporting are probably the two guys in the league that take the worst shots consistently. Durant doesn't settle that much...that is you answer. Those possessions where Kobe and Melo just take a long contested jumper...Durant is attacking and drawing fouls.

But again. What is more likely? That Kobe and Melo settle a little more and that Durant is just noticeably better at drawing fouls? Or that the NBA has a conspiracy against the likes of Melo and Kobe?

Please...
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:22 PM   #90
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
I actually think Durant goes to the line about as much as he should. Guys like Kobe, Melo, and (especially)Lebron should be going more.



The margins aren't all that small though. For example, comparing Lebron to Durant, you're looking at a ratio of .388 vs .525. Lebron with Durant's ft rate would put up 1.84 more ppg, and that's not even taking into account the fact that Lebron is probably fouled even more than Durant. Lebron would be putting up 29 ppg if he were getting called the way Durant is. That doesn't seem all that small to me.

That is simply an argument for Durant being better at drawing fouls. He's called that way because of what he does. You might have a problem with that, but he's clearly doing something that the other players in this thread aren't doing.

And the margins are small. Anyone without huge bias would admit that Kobe and Melo take more bad shots. I just can't believe you people can't see this. Melo takes roughly 4 more shots per game. But how many more shots per game is he taking in which getting fouled is even likely. He already takes 2 more threes per game. We've seen he takes 1.6 more shots at the rim, but we've been over that. He also takes 2 more long jumpers a game. And, as everyone has admitted, he's better at drawing fouls.

So that side of the argument is not putting any context to the fga argument. Just because you shoot more does not mean deserve the same or more free throw attempts as another player.

Harden takes 6 threes a game...and 1 less shot overall than Durant...yet he averages 1 more free throw per game. If I was taking the other side...I'd be throwing my arms up in there bitching about fga and free throw rate for Harden compared to Durant. It's absurd...Harden is just really ****ing good at drawing fouls....way better than the likes of a Melo or Kobe. That is what you morons can't get through your thick skulls.

There is no conspiracy...it's simple. Durant and Harden are just noticeably better at drawing fouls. And when you factor that in...the margins are small.
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