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Old 04-08-2013, 03:01 PM   #46
DMAVS41
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Element
Durant and Kobe take almost the same % of mid range shots of their total FGA. One of them leans into defenders, pump fakes mid air, etc to get the call. The other you breathe on, he flails his arms and he's sent to the line for a pair of free throws. Yeah Kobe takes way more bad fadeaways etc than anyone else, but he's also the best at making them. That ability is his greatest strength and weakness at the same time. You cannot honestly say with a straight face that KD is fairly reffed, even for superstar standards. He gets at least 1-3 illegitimate trips to the line each game. That recent game @ Indy is one of his few post-ASG very good scoring performances without him getting bailed out like crazy and shooting 12-15 FTA

That doesn't make sense given what you just said.

17.9 vs 20.4

Subtract the extra 3 that kobe shoots;

17.9 vs 19.4

Then you just said Kobe takes "way more bad fadeaways"(his ability to make them has no relevance here)...but let's just say he takes 1 more bad shot a game with no chance to get fouled;

17.9 vs 18.4

Then factor in Durant's superior ability to get to the line. Which is more than reasonable to equal a little less than 1 extra trip to the line per game. Which makes sense.

I mean. What are you people actually complaining about? That one of the best players in the league...that happens to be one of the best players at drawing fouls...is shooting a couple extra free throws a game on very similar shot attempts when getting fouled is actually possible? Makes sense to me.

We'd also need the amount of tech and defensive 3 second free throws shot on the year. I have no idea what those numbers would do, but that would give us a better idea as well.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:03 PM   #47
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
No, I posted numbers with context. You simply posted total FTA, which is obviously deceptive as I showed.



It is a big difference in terms of averages, and especially the rate they get to the line at. To show you what a big difference it's made, Durant's TS% has jumped from 61% to 64% based almost solely on the fact that the rate he gets to the line at increased so much from last season.



And I posted how many shots Melo and Durant take at the rim, so this is irrelevant.



Durant is better at drawing fouls, doesn't mean he deserves all of them that he gets. Besides, Kobe has probably been the best in the league at drawing legitimate fouls on jump shots for years.



I just told you, it's the excessive rate. The fact that he gets to the line at a noticeably higher rate than 2000 Shaq is laughable.

And it's clear to anyone who watches them play that Melo doesn't get the calls Durant does, even on similar plays. Melo often gets hit going inside with no foul calls, if there's the slightest contact on Durant, or even just someone contesting an easy shot of his that he misses, he usually gets the call.

And the only one whose trying to cover anything up is you. You posted simple FTA numbers(which weren't that close) to try to suggest he doesn't get to the line at a higher rate.

You didn't answer anything.

What do shots at the rim matter without the context of those shots. You mean the ones where Melo just throws it at the backboard and gets his own rebound for a tip in. He does that frequently enough for that to make your shots at the rim thing irrelevant.

And no, sorry, you can't just ignore the fact that Melo takes 2 more threes per game. LOL...so biased.

I never said he doesn't get to the line at a higher rate or more often. Those are facts. I simply said it wasn't that big of a gap when you really think about it...all of the stuff I'm talking about was implied.

You, on the other hand, want to compare fga and ft rate as if that is a fair comparison. When we all know when we watch the games that Melo and Kobe settle for more bad shots with little to no chance to get fouled one. On 3's alone it cuts that fga nonsense you were spewing way down. And again...shots at the rim does not mean one player should get to the line more often.

When you subtract 3's and the amount of bad shots Kobe and Melo both take...you get a comparable number of shots that these players can get fouled on. Then the difference is simple...and something everyone agrees with. Durant is better at drawing fouls.

Amazing how logic works.

Last edited by DMAVS41 : 04-08-2013 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:07 PM   #48
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Well, yes...I guess. But the main point was not to say that the difference isn't there or important.

It was to say it was deserved. It makes perfect sense that Durant goes to the line a little less than 1 more time per game.

I would never say the difference isn't important, but I would say it is within reason given the evidence.
It isnt deserved though.. Forget Kobe and Melo.

Compare Durant to Lebron, a guy who actually penetrates and draws a similar amount of contact(more actually) and plays efficiently/smartly with a similar amount of FGA.

37% ratio to 52% ratio

Whats your explanation for that?


Watching the games, you can see Durant using his long arms to sweep under or through the defenders arms even if the defender is within his own space. This happens whenever Durant is dribbling and gets pressured inside the arc. Durant will always sweep and flail, and since he has the length to make serious contact, hell get the call.

Its one thing to bait the refs when youre trying to score.. but KD is approaching late 2011 D-Wade levels of ref baiting. Literally every single time down the court if he goes into the paint he acts like he was fouled. Its like the mentality of 'scorers' has switched from trying to simply put the ball in the basket, to relying on refs to just gift you opportunities.

Like a dog that was given to many treats and doesnt want to go hunting for his own food anymore.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:07 PM   #49
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by esiotrot
First off: he gets a lot of cheap calls because of his flailing limbs and sht.

But last year, he averaged 28.0ppg on 49.6/38.7/86.0 (61%TS) with 7.6 free throws per game.


he is overrated
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:09 PM   #50
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
You didn't answer anything.

What do shots at the rim matter without the context of those shots. You mean the ones where Melo just throws it at the backboard and gets his own rebound for a tip in. He does that frequently enough for that to make your shots at the rim thing irrelevant.

And no, sorry, you can't just ignore the fact that Melo takes 2 more threes per game. LOL...so biased.

You calling me biased is incredibly ironic. There's been nothing here to suggest any bias on my part.

Yeah, I've seen Melo do the Moses thing at times, but don't pretend Melo doesn't go in, use and his body and not get the call. Calls Durant will get 95% of the time. Hubie Brown said a few times in the game yesterday that Melo should be shooting free throws on plays he didn't get the call. It happens regularly.

I've answered every poor attempt at an argument you've made. Fact is, Melo takes more shots at the rim, and that's where most fouls occur.

The Shaq example should be a good indication of how many calls Durant gets. You want to pretend Durant is in a position to get fouled more than Shaq was in 2000?
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:11 PM   #51
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by tpols
It isnt deserved though.. Forget Kobe and Melo.

Compare Durant to Lebron, a guy who actually penetrates and draws a similar amount of contact(more actually) and plays efficiently/smartly with a similar amount of FGA.

37% ratio to 52% ratio

Whats your explanation for that?


Watching the games, you can see Durant using his long arms to sweep under or through the defenders arms even if the defender is within his own space. This happens whenever Durant is dribbling and gets pressured inside the arc. Durant will always sweep and flail, and since he has the length to make serious contact, hell get the call.

Its one thing to bait the refs when youre trying to score.. but KD is approaching late 2011 D-Wade levels of ref baiting. Literally every single time down the court if he goes into the paint he acts like he was fouled. Its like the mentality of 'scorers' has switched from trying to simply put the ball in the basket, to relying on refs to just gift you opportunities.

Like a dog that was given to many treats and doesnt want to go hunting for his own food anymore.

It's deserved because he does it and others don't or can't.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:11 PM   #52
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

If you actually just sit and watch a Heat game or a Knick game or a OKC game you can see with your own damn eyes why people have an issue with Durant. You don't need to bring out your list of numbers with comparisons because THEY DONT ****IN RECORD WHETHER CALLS ARE BS OR NOT


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Old 04-08-2013, 03:13 PM   #53
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
It's deserved because he does it and others don't or can't.

That's complete BULLSHIT. Others are getting hacked and aren't getting calls. Durant is getting babied. It's simple.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:15 PM   #54
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Cuz KD's game revolves around shooting freethrows nowadays.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:16 PM   #55
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
You calling me biased is incredibly ironic. There's been nothing here to suggest any bias on my part.

Yeah, I've seen Melo do the Moses thing at times, but don't pretend Melo doesn't go in, use and his body and not get the call. Calls Durant will get 95% of the time. Hubie Brown said a few times in the game yesterday that Melo should be shooting free throws on plays he didn't get the call. It happens regularly.

I've answered every poor attempt at an argument you've made. Fact is, Melo takes more shots at the rim, and that's where most fouls occur.

The Shaq example should be a good indication of how many calls Durant gets. You want to pretend Durant is in a position to get fouled more than Shaq was in 2000?

You are biased because you because the margins in this debate are incredibly small.

Again. All you are proving is exactly what I said. Durant is better at drawing fouls (which you agreed with) and he takes better shots (you don't realize you are making this point, but you are)

The truth is that if we were all being honest

Durant takes 17.9 shots per game...that is the basis.

When you account for 3's and bad shots...I'd say;

Kobe takes 18 shots per game he can be fouled on.
Melo takes 19 shots per game he can be fouled on.

So your fga vs ft rate line of thinking is bogus.

You are basically saying. OMG...Kobe takes 2.5 more shots per games and shoots less free throws.

And I'm saying...But Kobe takes 1 more three per game. He also takes more bad shots. And, the kicker, Durant is better at drawing fouls.

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Old 04-08-2013, 03:17 PM   #56
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by ThatsGame
That's complete BULLSHIT. Others are getting hacked and aren't getting calls. Durant is getting babied. It's simple.

Yes. The league is biased against Lebron, Kobe, and Melo...and they love Durant and Harden.

That makes more sense than just using simple logic.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:21 PM   #57
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
You are biased because you because the margins in this debate are incredibly small.

Again. All you are proving is exactly what I said. Durant is better at drawing fouls (which you agreed with) and he takes better shots (you don't realize you are making this point, but you are)

The truth is that if we were all being honest

Durant takes 17.9 shots per game...that is the basis.

When you account for 3's and bad shots...I'd say;

Kobe takes 18 shots per game he can be fouled on.
Melo takes 19 shots per game he can be fouled on.

So your fga vs ft rate line of thinking is bogus.

You are basically saying. OMG...Kobe takes 2.5 more shots per games and shoots less free throws.

And I'm saying...But Kobe takes 1 more three per game. He also takes more bad shots. And, the kicker, Durant is better at drawing fouls.


I never disputed that Durant takes better shots either. I never disputed that he should get to the line at a higher rate the way he plays. But stop harping on the 3s thing when I already posted the shots at the rim, which is much more accurate since there are a lot of 2s you're not likely to get fouled on, most jump shots actually, and if you are going to get fouled on a jump shot, you're not much more likely to get fouled on a 2 point jump shot than a 3.

The margin isn't small, and while Durant deserves to get to the line at a higher rate than Melo, it's clear they're not officiated the same, and Melo doesn't get the benefit of the whistles Durant does. And you still haven't addressed the Shaq point(actually, you haven't accurately addressed any of my points, but this one, you haven't even bothered to try). Does Durant deserve to get to the line at a higher rate than 2000 Shaq? I know you won't be harping on your 3 point thing in this example.

Again, nothing to suggest bias. I don't where you're getting that. Melo simply doesn't get the calls Durant does, even on similar plays.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:23 PM   #58
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Yes. The league is biased against Lebron, Kobe, and Melo...and they love Durant and Harden.

That makes more sense than just using simple logic.

Watch the games.

No seriously, just watch the games.

If you still can't see a discrepancy then you're just a troll and/or stupid.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:24 PM   #59
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
It's deserved because he does it and others don't or can't.
So you can't explain the massive difference in FT ratio between Bron and Durant..
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:25 PM   #60
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
I never disputed that Durant takes better shots either. I never disputed that he should get to the line at a higher rate the way he plays. But stop harping on the 3s thing when I already posted the shots at the rim, which is much more accurate since there are a lot of 2s you're not likely to get fouled on, most jump shots actually, and if you are going to get fouled on a jump shot, you're not much more likely to get fouled on a 2 point jump shot than a 3.

The margin isn't small, and while Durant deserves to get to the line at a higher rate than Melo, it's clear they're not officiated the same, and Melo doesn't get the benefit of the whistles Durant does. And you still haven't addressed the Shaq point(actually, you haven't accurately addressed any of my points, but this one, you haven't even bothered to try). Does Durant deserve to get to the line at a higher rate than 2000 Shaq? I know you won't be harping on your 3 point thing in this example.

Again, nothing to suggest bias. I don't where you're getting that. Melo simply doesn't get the calls Durant does, even on similar plays.

Everything you are saying is biased. Shooting more shots at the rim does not mean you should get to the ft line more.

The game was called much differently back then. So I can't really answer the thing about Shaq.

What I do know, is that Durant deserves to go to the line as often as he does in comparison to Kobe and Melo.

You seem to be stuck in your thinking.

What are shots at the rim total for Durant and Kobe?
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