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Old 04-08-2013, 01:20 PM   #31
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

You shouldn't take what you read on here that serious half the time. Many of the posters just say things for attention. Nobody really does anything to ban the trolls. You just have to follow and listen to the quality posters on here like DMAVS41.
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Old 04-08-2013, 01:22 PM   #32
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
And you get two free throws per every trip to the line.

Hence roughly 1 more trip to the free throw line.
My bad i misinterpreted what you said. I agree with your post though.
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Old 04-08-2013, 01:53 PM   #33
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Durant is obviously a great scorer regardless. He's an unbelievable shooter from everywhere, and it's impossible to contest his shot since he's 6'10" with the arms of a seven footer, which also makes him a very good finisher. He moves well without the ball, and can create his own shot off the dribble.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Probably, but unfortunately most people are just stupid on here.

Durant goes to the line less than 1 more time than the likes of Kobe and Melo.

Durant shoots 9.4 free throws per game.

Kobe shoots 7.7 and Melo shoots 7.6

You can't just post FTA without FGA. Durant attempts just 17.9 FGA while Melo takes 22 and Kobe takes 20.4, meaning Durant gets to the line at a much higher rate than any of them.

Durant averages a free throw attempt for every 1.91 FGA. Melo averages a FTA for every 2.9 FGA and Kobe averages a free throw attempt for every 2.63 FGA.

To put these numbers in perspective, Melo has 7 more total FGA all season and Durant has 243 more free throws. While Kobe has 149 more total FGA than Durant, and Durant has 141 more free throws.

I don't care what you personally interpret these numbers, just don't pretend Melo and Kobe get to the line at a comparable rate, because it's simply not true.

Personally, I think Durant's FTA this year are excessive. Last season, he attempted a free throw for every 2.59 FGA, now it's a FT for every 1.91 FGA as I mentioned before.

And he's not attempting more shots at the rim either.

2012
At Rim: 4.2 FGA
3-10 feet: 3.1 FGA

2013
At Rim: 4.0 FGA
3-10 feet: 3.0 FGA

That's why his TS% has jumped from 61% last season to 64% this season while his eFG% has remained roughly the same at just over 55% this season vs just under last season.
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:47 PM   #34
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Durant is obviously a great scorer regardless. He's an unbelievable shooter from everywhere, and it's impossible to contest his shot since he's 6'10" with the arms of a seven footer, which also makes him a very good finisher. He moves well without the ball, and can create his own shot off the dribble.





You can't just post FTA without FGA. Durant attempts just 17.9 FGA while Melo takes 22 and Kobe takes 20.4, meaning Durant gets to the line at a much higher rate than any of them.

Durant averages a free throw attempt for every 1.91 FGA. Melo averages a FTA for every 2.9 FGA and Kobe averages a free throw attempt for every 2.63 FGA.

To put these numbers in perspective, Melo has 7 more total FGA all season and Durant has 243 more free throws. While Kobe has 149 more total FGA than Durant, and Durant has 141 more free throws.

I don't care what you personally interpret these numbers, just don't pretend Melo and Kobe get to the line at a comparable rate, because it's simply not true.

Personally, I think Durant's FTA this year are excessive. Last season, he attempted a free throw for every 2.59 FGA, now it's a FT for every 1.91 FGA as I mentioned before.

And he's not attempting more shots at the rim either.

2012
At Rim: 4.2 FGA
3-10 feet: 3.1 FGA

2013
At Rim: 4.0 FGA
3-10 feet: 3.0 FGA

That's why his TS% has jumped from 61% last season to 64% this season while his eFG% has remained roughly the same at just over 55% this season vs just under last season.

/thread
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:56 PM   #35
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

The point is that:

- He really should have much less FTAs then he does get, not the discrepancy between him and Melo. That would decrease not only his PPG but also TS%.

- Those FTA that should've been missed FGA also unfairly boost his TS% and FG% which gives him god-like efficiency

- Melo should get WAY more FTA, I mean he gets hacked on pretty much half his post-ups and sometimes won't even get a call when he tips it back in
-
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:03 PM   #36
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Stat sheet freaks. Does he get about 30ppg? enough said.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:16 PM   #37
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Durant is obviously a great scorer regardless. He's an unbelievable shooter from everywhere, and it's impossible to contest his shot since he's 6'10" with the arms of a seven footer, which also makes him a very good finisher. He moves well without the ball, and can create his own shot off the dribble.





You can't just post FTA without FGA. Durant attempts just 17.9 FGA while Melo takes 22 and Kobe takes 20.4, meaning Durant gets to the line at a much higher rate than any of them.

Durant averages a free throw attempt for every 1.91 FGA. Melo averages a FTA for every 2.9 FGA and Kobe averages a free throw attempt for every 2.63 FGA.

To put these numbers in perspective, Melo has 7 more total FGA all season and Durant has 243 more free throws. While Kobe has 149 more total FGA than Durant, and Durant has 141 more free throws.

I don't care what you personally interpret these numbers, just don't pretend Melo and Kobe get to the line at a comparable rate, because it's simply not true.

Personally, I think Durant's FTA this year are excessive. Last season, he attempted a free throw for every 2.59 FGA, now it's a FT for every 1.91 FGA as I mentioned before.

And he's not attempting more shots at the rim either.

2012
At Rim: 4.2 FGA
3-10 feet: 3.1 FGA

2013
At Rim: 4.0 FGA
3-10 feet: 3.0 FGA

That's why his TS% has jumped from 61% last season to 64% this season while his eFG% has remained roughly the same at just over 55% this season vs just under last season.

How is that bringing any context to the numbers when all that shows is that Durant is much better at drawing fouls when he shoots. And probably means that Kobe and Melo take a handful of bad shots a game that Durant doesn't...and doesn't have to because of his team. You see....your breakdown isn't really that fair because of the following;

Take Kobe. Well, he takes 1 more 3 per game. So there goes 1 of those extra shots...obviously you can get fouled on a 3, but pretty rare. Down to 19.4 vs 17.9. Now, how many shots a game does Kobe settle for vs Durant not. I'd say Kobe probably takes something around 1 to 2 just bad shots a game that Durant, on average, doesn't take. Now you start to get very close on the shot attempts per game in which the player can realistically get fouled. Then...all you have to do is factor in the simple fact that Durant is easily superior at drawing fouls...hence you get him going to the line roughly 1 more time per game.

Take Melo. Same thing. Melo takes 2 more threes per game. Down to 20 vs 17.9 on that alone. Again, how many bad shots does Melo take a game that Durant doesn't? Probably 1 to 2 again. So now you are at something like 19 vs 17.9. Factor in Durant's superior ability to get to the line and you have the difference...that is very conceivable.

At some point you have to give players credit for what they do well. Harden and Durant are great at drawing fouls...

And those numbers over the course of a season might look big...but they really aren't on a per game basis.

Like I said before...I think Durant's superior ability to draw shooting fouls over Kobe and Carmelo easily leads to an extra trip to the ft line a game.

It never ceases to amaze me how people just can't give credit to certain players for what they do well...instead it has to be about some NBA conspiracy to gift Durant free throws.

I don't know what you think of Harden then. He takes a full shot less than Durant per game and shoots almost 1 more free throw.

It's really quite simple. Durant has better shot selection and shoots less threes. He also settles a little less than both Kobe and Melo...and he's just better at drawing fouls. On threes alone it cuts your fga argument down considerably.

Last edited by DMAVS41 : 04-08-2013 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:28 PM   #38
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Lol DMAVS Durant gets free throws with little to no contact moreso than any other superstar since MJ, including Wade when he was in his D-Whistle prime and he does that sh.it with less at rim FGA than any of them, includig 100-year old 2013 Kobe Bryant.

The guy gets equally as many FTA as motherfvckn 06 Kobe who attempted 27 (!!) FGA and 6 at rim, as well as 01 Iverson who got hacked hard on his penetrations AND jumpers while obv attempting more FGA from any area on the court.

Durant's gaudy numbers both efficiency and volume wise are stupidly inflated because of Supersupersuperstar treatment. Nikka prolly has nudes of Stern or some sh.it like that.

Dirk in contrast is a jumpshooter who legitimately gets fouled most of the time, since his shot is literally unblockable and sniper-like in accuracy.

And Harden is a bad comparison. He's similar because he's a flopper but he's a statisticians wet dream in terms of shot selection. He drives much much more than KD and looks to actually finish the play more often, plus he's a better flopper and his Eurostep is so deceptive that you have to foul him.

I think KD reffed by normal superstar standards is a 25-28 ppg @ 58-60 TS% player which is still excellent.

Last edited by Element : 04-08-2013 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:37 PM   #39
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
How is that bringing any context to the numbers when all that shows is that Durant is much better at drawing fouls when he shoots.

At some point you have to give players credit for what they do well. Harden and Durant are great at drawing fouls...

And those numbers over the course of a season might look big...but they really aren't on a per game basis.

Like I said before...I think Durant's superior ability to draw shooting fouls over Kobe and Carmelo easily leads to an extra trip to the ft line a game.

It never ceases to amaze me how people just can't give credit to certain players for what they do well...instead it has to be about some NBA conspiracy to gift Durant free throws.

I don't know what you think of Harden then. He takes a full shot less than Durant per game and shoots almost 1 more free throw.

Conspiracy there as well?

First of all, don't dodge the fact that you posted deceptive numbers to try to suggest Melo and Kobe got to the line at a comparable rate. I proved that to be false. So lets get that out of the way.

As far as the rate Durant draws fouls at, I didn't tell you how to interpret the numbers. In fact, I just posted them and specifically said, interpret those anyway you want.

I didn't say Kobe and Melo should get to the line at the same rate Durant does. I watch them play, and would expect Durant to get more free throws because his shot is so difficult to contest, his off the ball movement sometimes gets him right under the basket which is almost always going to result in a foul or basket because you can't do much in that situation and as I mentioned, Durant's length makes him a very good finisher.

Melo on the other hand isn't the finisher Durant is and he gets a lot of shots blocked. But it's also clear he doesn't get anywhere near the calls Durant does. If you try to argue that, you simply don't watch both play. Melo actually does attempt 1.7 extra shots around the rim than Durant as well. And to put those numbers in better context, 26% of Melo's shots come at the rim, while 22.1% of Durant's shots come at the rim.

Durant sells the calls better, he always throws his arms up on a drive, but the refs almost always give him the benefit of the doubt, even if there's not much contact. For example, if Durant takes a jumper, misses it, but twists a little while he's shooting it, he'll almost always get free throws, same thing with lay ups. He still gets shooting fouls at times on that rip move as well, even when the other team isn't in the penalty.

And tell me, why Durant's free throws have increased so much from last season? I don't have a problem with him getting to the line a lot, but the rate is excessive, and I don't see anyway to argue that. He's getting to the line at a much higher rate than peak 2000 Shaq, a guy who played as physical as anyone, pretty much exclusively 10 feet and in, and was intentionally fouled.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:43 PM   #40
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Element
Lol DMAVS Durant gets free throws with little to no contact moreso than any other superstar since MJ, including Wade when he was in his D-Whistle prime and he does that sh.it with less at rim FGA than any of them, includig 100-year old 2013 Kobe Bryant.

The guy gets equally as many FTA as motherfvckn 06 Kobe who attempted 27 (!!) FGA and 6 at rim, as well as 01 Iverson who got hacked hard on his penetrations AND jumpers while obv attempting more FGA from any area on the court.

Durant's gaudy numbers both efficiency and volume wise are stupidly inflated because of Supersupersuperstar treatment. Nikka prolly has nudes of Stern or some sh.it like that.

Dirk in contrast is a jumpshooter who legitimately gets fouled most of the time, since his shot is literally unblockable and sniper-like in accuracy.

And Harden is a bad comparison. He's similar because he's a flopper but he's a statisticians wet dream in terms of shot selection. He drives much much more than KD and looks to actually finish the play more often, plus he's a better flopper and his Eurostep is so deceptive that you have to foul him.

I think KD reffed by normal superstar standards is a 25-28 ppg @ 58-60 TS% player which is still excellent.

Let's try this.

For the sake of argument, lets say that a player can't get fouled on a 3...just so we have some common ground to work off of. Obviously you can, but it's rare and indicative of settling.

If you even up the threes shot per game. You get.

Durant 17.9 fga
Melo 20 fga
Kobe 19.4 fga

Now, I'd normally argue that both Kobe and Melo take a couple more shots per game in which drawing a foul is unlikely. The Kobe...pick up the ball...pump fake 3 times...and then shoot a fade away comes to mind. But even if that all adds up to just 1 more bad shot per game...you get;

Durant 17.9
Melo 19
Kobe 18.4

And then you are getting close enough to just see the truth. That Durant is better at drawing fouls and getting to the line than Kobe and Melo...and easily explains going to the line a little less than 1 more time per game.

You can't just list fga and not put the attempts into some type of context. You also can't just ignore that Durant has a superior ability and should be going to the line at a higher rate.

So what more do you need explained? Better ability to get to the line...and the two players brought up take at least 2 to 3 shots per game more than Durant in which they are highly unlikely to get fouled.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:46 PM   #41
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
First of all, don't dodge the fact that you posted deceptive numbers to try to suggest Melo and Kobe got to the line at a comparable rate. I proved that to be false. So lets get that out of the way.

As far as the rate Durant draws fouls at, I didn't tell you how to interpret the numbers. In fact, I just posted them and specifically said, interpret those anyway you want.

I didn't say Kobe and Melo should get to the line at the same rate Durant does. I watch them play, and would expect Durant to get more free throws because his shot is so difficult to contest, his off the ball movement sometimes gets him right under the basket which is almost always going to result in a foul or basket because you can't do much in that situation and as I mentioned, Durant's length makes him a very good finisher.

Melo on the other hand isn't the finisher Durant is and he gets a lot of shots blocked. But it's also clear he doesn't get anywhere near the calls Durant does. If you try to argue that, you simply don't watch both play. Melo actually does attempt 1.7 extra shots around the rim than Durant as well. And to put those numbers in better context, 26% of Melo's shots come at the rim, while 22.1% of Durant's shots come at the rim.

Durant sells the calls better, he always throws his arms up on a drive, but the refs almost always give him the benefit of the doubt, even if there's not much contact. For example, if Durant takes a jumper, misses it, but twists a little while he's shooting it, he'll almost always get free throws, same thing with lay ups. He still gets shooting fouls at times on that rip move as well, even when the other team isn't in the penalty.

And tell me, why Durant's free throws have increased so much from last season? I don't have a problem with him getting to the line a lot, but the rate is excessive, and I don't see anyway to argue that. He's getting to the line at a much higher rate than peak 2000 Shaq, a guy who played as physical as anyone, pretty much exclusively 10 feet and in, and was intentionally fouled.

Lets get this out of the way. Your numbers are deceptive. I posted nothing deceptive. Just reality.

You can't just post fga and pretend like it is equal. And I never even said they got to the line at a comparable rate. I said it wasn't that big of a difference...which it isn't on a per game basis. And I said it was deserved for Durant because he's just better at drawing fouls.

On threes alone you have to remove 2 shots per game from Melo and 1 shot per game from Kobe.

And we all know both of those guys take more bad shots than Durant besides that as well.

So it's not hard man. Durant is better at drawing fouls and Melo / Kobe take more threes and more bad shots. So that total number of fga per game that the players are in a situation to actually get fouled starts to get very close.

So besides trying to cover up the fact that your fga comparison is bs...you basically just agree that Durant is better at drawing fouls. So what is your problem?
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:50 PM   #42
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41

Durant shoots 9.4 free throws per game.

Kobe shoots 7.7 and Melo shoots 7.6
.
This is the exact same thing as saying the difference between 45%FG and 50%FG is minimal because its only one extra shot missed per game for a superstar averaging ~20 shots. And that logic was debunked a long time ago..

Durant gets 20+% MORE free throws than kobe and melo while taking less shots.

Sarcatic brought up a great Stat..

50+% FGA/FT ratio for Durant versus 30%s FGA/FT ratio for nearly every other superstar.

For a jumpshooter...
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:56 PM   #43
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Durant and Kobe take almost the same % of mid range shots of their total FGA. One of them leans into defenders, pump fakes mid air, etc to get the call. The other you breathe on, he flails his arms and he's sent to the line for a pair of free throws. Yeah Kobe takes way more bad fadeaways etc than anyone else, but he's also the best at making them. That ability is his greatest strength and weakness at the same time. You cannot honestly say with a straight face that KD is fairly reffed, even for superstar standards. He gets at least 1-3 illegitimate trips to the line each game. That recent game @ Indy is one of his few post-ASG very good scoring performances without him getting bailed out like crazy and shooting 12-15 FTA
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:56 PM   #44
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
This is the exact same thing as saying the difference between 45%FG and 50%FG is minimal because its only one extra shot missed per game for a superstar averaging ~20 shots. And that logic was debunked a long time ago..

Durant gets 20+% MORE free throws than kobe and melo while taking less shots.

Sarcatic brought up a great Stat..

50+% FGA/FT ratio for Durant versus 30%s FGA/FT ratio for nearly every other superstar.

For a jumpshooter...

Well, yes...I guess. But the main point was not to say that the difference isn't there or important.

It was to say it was deserved. It makes perfect sense that Durant goes to the line a little less than 1 more time per game.

I would never say the difference isn't important, but I would say it is within reason given the evidence.
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Old 04-08-2013, 04:01 PM   #45
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Lets get this out of the way. Your numbers are deceptive. I posted nothing deceptive. Just reality.

No, I posted numbers with context. You simply posted total FTA, which is obviously deceptive as I showed.

Quote:
You can't just post fga and pretend like it is equal. And I never even said they got to the line at a comparable rate. I said it wasn't that big of a difference...which it isn't on a per game basis. And I said it was deserved for Durant because he's just better at drawing fouls.

It is a big difference in terms of averages, and especially the rate they get to the line at. To show you what a big difference it's made, Durant's TS% has jumped from 61% to 64% based almost solely on the fact that the rate he gets to the line at increased so much from last season.

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On threes alone you have to remove 2 shots per game from Melo and 1 shot per game from Kobe.

And I posted how many shots Melo and Durant take at the rim, so this is irrelevant.

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And we all know both of those guys take more bad shots than Durant besides that as well.

So it's not hard man. Durant is better at drawing fouls and Melo / Kobe take more threes and more bad shots. So that total number of fga per game that the players are in a situation to actually get fouled starts to get very close.

Durant is better at drawing fouls, doesn't mean he deserves all of them that he gets. Besides, Kobe has probably been the best in the league at drawing legitimate fouls on jump shots for years.

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So besides trying to cover up the fact that your fga comparison is bs...you basically just agree that Durant is better at drawing fouls. So what is your problem?

I just told you, it's the excessive rate. The fact that he gets to the line at a noticeably higher rate than 2000 Shaq is laughable.

And it's clear to anyone who watches them play that Melo doesn't get the calls Durant does, even on similar plays. Melo often gets hit going inside with no foul calls, if there's the slightest contact on Durant, or even just someone contesting an easy shot of his that he misses, he usually gets the call.

And the only one whose trying to cover anything up is you. You posted simple FTA numbers(which weren't that close) to try to suggest he doesn't get to the line at a higher rate.
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