Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > NBA Forum

NBA Forum NBA Message Board - NBA Fan Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-11-2013, 11:25 PM   #166
DMAVS41
NBA Legend
 
DMAVS41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 19,203
DMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
If it doesn't affect the discussion at hand at all, why mess with it? Should we also equalize the number of cars that each player owns?

To be fair, there might be some argument for correlation, but I've never seen anyone make it, and it could honestly go either way.



So stop pretending that a fact is true? That's basically what you're saying here.



It's equalized by default, that's where the misunderstanding lies.



Which points?

It's equalized by default if you think fga vs fta is a direct correlation. We've already blown that out of the water. Same with attempts at the rim.

I'll do it again.

Here are the 2 arguments that your side has made. FGA and shots at the rim.

Both do not hold true for the top 4 guys...what we have been discussing about.

And the shots at the rim do not hold true for Lebron or Westbrook. Westbrook shoots more shots at the rim than both Harden and Durant...and he takes more shots than both of them. Yet he shoots less free throws.

Melo is the same way.

Kobe takes more shots at the rim than Durant...and more shots overall...and he shoots less free throws.

Minutes on the court should be even because the only time you can get fouled is if you are on the court. You don't have to be taking a fga to get fouled so it's not the same at all. What players do on the court is up to them. Again..not saying it is a huge factor. But it is a factor.

What seems to be lost in all of this is that Durant and Harden both play to get fouled. It is part of their game...they try to draw fouls a lot. The other guys don't as much. That is probably the biggest factor.

But no...lets keep pretending that Melo taking a bunch of long jumpers every game impacts how often he gets to the line.
DMAVS41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 11:38 PM   #167
DMAVS41
NBA Legend
 
DMAVS41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 19,203
DMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Lets try this another way.

Kobe takes 1.5 more shots than Westbrook a game. Kobe also takes 1.5 more threes...not to mention more bad shots and long shots. But let's just even them up by reducing Kobe's threes to westbrooks.

So they both then take 18.9 shots a game.

Westbrook takes 1.6 more shots at the rim each game. Yet Kobe shoots .8 more free throws per game.

Why? Westbrook attacks more. Gets to the rim more. Somehow Kobe taking a handful of more long/bad shots per game impacts his free throws enough to warrant him taking almost 1 more free throw per game?

Makes no sense if what your side is arguing for is accurate...but thankfully it isn't.
DMAVS41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 11:52 PM   #168
DatAsh
Local High School Star
 
DatAsh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,606
DatAsh has an incredible reputation hereDatAsh has an incredible reputation hereDatAsh has an incredible reputation hereDatAsh has an incredible reputation hereDatAsh has an incredible reputation hereDatAsh has an incredible reputation hereDatAsh has an incredible reputation here
Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
It's equalized by default if you think fga vs fta is a direct correlation.
The bolded is provably false. Why would I believe something that's provably false?

Quote:
We've already blown that out of the water.
It was blown out of the water from the get-go, you had absolutely no hand in that.

Quote:
Here are the 2 arguments that your side has made. FGA and shots at the rim.
This is another strawman. You're arguing against a point I never made.

Quote:
Both do not hold true for the top 4 guys...what we have been discussing about.
Exactly. That's what makes them so much better at getting to the line.

Quote:
And the shots at the rim do not hold true for Lebron or Westbrook. Westbrook shoots more shots at the rim than both Harden and Durant...and he takes more shots than both of them. Yet he shoots less free throws.
Exactly, Westbrook is another one who I'd say gets hacked more than he gets credit for.

Quote:
Kobe takes more shots at the rim than Durant...and more shots overall...and he shoots less free throws.
Yep, and that's why I say Durant is much better at getting to the line.

Quote:
Minutes on the court should be even because the only time you can get fouled is if you are on the court. You don't have to be taking a fga to get fouled so it's not the same at all. What players do on the court is up to them. Again..not saying it is a huge factor. But it is a factor.
My intuition would tell me that rate decreases as minutes increase, but I've never seen any sort of stats related to such a thing. Without some kind of applicable correlation, you're just multiplying by a common factor and not changing the rate at all.

Quote:
What seems to be lost in all of this is that Durant and Harden both play to get fouled. It is part of their game...they try to draw fouls a lot. The other guys don't as much. That is probably the biggest factor.
You're right here, and I actually don't see anything wrong with playing for the foul, if it works.
DatAsh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 11:57 PM   #169
SamuraiSWISH
Samurai Swoosh
 
SamuraiSWISH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,816
SamuraiSWISH is a pretty well-respected posterSamuraiSWISH is a pretty well-respected posterSamuraiSWISH is a pretty well-respected posterSamuraiSWISH is a pretty well-respected poster
Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

I don't think Durant is a better scorer than Kobe, Melo , or LeBron. He's a shooter much like Dirk, only he's superior at putting the ball on the ground, slashing, and has more athletic ability. But the soft calls he gets, combined with the absurd amount of free throws that pad his scoring numbers are making me second guess him and actually root against him. The way the league is manufacturing his performances is appalling.
SamuraiSWISH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 12:10 AM   #170
UnbiasedGuy
Banned
 
UnbiasedGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: 中国
Posts: 152
UnbiasedGuy has not been impressing people
Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Some well put arguments the last couple pages for both sides
:applause

sorry, do not have anything to add to the discussion until I read this thread and have a better informed opinion

Last edited by UnbiasedGuy : 04-12-2013 at 12:37 AM.
UnbiasedGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 12:16 AM   #171
DMAVS41
NBA Legend
 
DMAVS41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 19,203
DMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
The bolded is provably false. Why would I believe something that's provably false?


It was blown out of the water from the get-go, you had absolutely no hand in that.


This is another strawman. You're arguing against a point I never made.


Exactly. That's what makes them so much better at getting to the line.


Exactly, Westbrook is another one who I'd say gets hacked more than he gets credit for.


Yep, and that's why I say Durant is much better at getting to the line.


My intuition would tell me that rate decreases as minutes increase, but I've never seen any sort of stats related to such a thing. Without some kind of applicable correlation, you're just multiplying by a common factor and not changing the rate at all.


You're right here, and I actually don't see anything wrong with playing for the foul, if it works.

So...is your issue that Harden and Durant and I guess...Kobe? get to the line too often compared to other players. Or that Westbrook and Melo and Lebron don't get enough calls?

I know it's kind of the same thing, but the difference between a guy like Harden and Westbrook, for example, is that Harden plays to get fouled while Westbrook plays to score. Not all of the time, but there is a clear cut difference between playing styles.

So doesn't that seem like the biggest factor?
DMAVS41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 12:25 AM   #172
NumberSix
Big Booty Hoes!!
 
NumberSix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The Internets
Posts: 21,769
NumberSix has no real reputation yet.
Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
So...is your issue that Harden and Durant and I guess...Kobe? get to the line too often compared to other players. Or that Westbrook and Melo and Lebron don't get enough calls?

I know it's kind of the same thing, but the difference between a guy like Harden and Westbrook, for example, is that Harden plays to get fouled while Westbrook plays to score. Not all of the time, but there is a clear cut difference between playing styles.

So doesn't that seem like the biggest factor?
Meh. Playing to draw a foul is a perfectly legitimate strategy. It's still an actual foul. There's a difference between

A) -baiting legit fouls

or

B) -phantom fouls
-getting FTs for something that by NBA rules isn't supposed to result in FTs
-really weak questionable minimal contact fouls.
NumberSix is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 12:30 AM   #173
DMAVS41
NBA Legend
 
DMAVS41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 19,203
DMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NumberSix
Meh. Playing to draw a foul is a perfectly legitimate strategy. It's still an actual foul. There's a difference between

A) -baiting legit fouls

or

B) -phantom fouls
-getting FTs for something that by NBA rules isn't supposed to result in FTs
-really weak questionable minimal contact fouls.

You simply don't watch enough of the games of all the players in question to make the claim that one player gets more phantom calls than the other.

It's called confirmation bias...and unless you've watched virtually every Thunder, Knicks, Lakers, and Rockets game...you simply can't say that.

But even if I concede that Durant and Harden get more BS calls. What is the ultimate impact of that? How often more is it happening. This is where the margins come in as small and what I was saying earlier.

Even if you say Durant isn't better at drawing fouls and he's just reffed differently, it's still only leading to 1.8 more free throws per game. I'm not saying that isn't a big difference, but Durant scoring an extra 1.6 ppg off undeserved free throws is simply not worth bitching about to the extreme some people are.
DMAVS41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 12:40 AM   #174
Unstoppabull
High School JV MVP
 
Unstoppabull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Your House
Posts: 689
Unstoppabull has decent reputationUnstoppabull has decent reputation
Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Unstoppabull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 12:44 AM   #175
BlazerRed
Don has beautiful aura
 
BlazerRed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Bend, Oregon
Posts: 7,300
BlazerRed is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableBlazerRed is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableBlazerRed is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableBlazerRed is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableBlazerRed is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableBlazerRed is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableBlazerRed is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableBlazerRed is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableBlazerRed is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableBlazerRed is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableBlazerRed is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginable
Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unstoppabull
BlazerRed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 01:10 AM   #176
Unstoppabull
High School JV MVP
 
Unstoppabull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Your House
Posts: 689
Unstoppabull has decent reputationUnstoppabull has decent reputation
Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Here's a thought. Durant gets so many fouls, is the same reason Harden gets so many foul calls. It's not like James Harden down in Houston is some massively marketable superstar; you can change your game to make people foul you. I believe they both model their game at trying to draw fouls. Oh yea not to mention Harden's a better flopper than any of them.

It does make sense tho. People will generally play off of LeBron more often, to stop his drives to the rim. No one will want to foul LeBron when he drives to the rim because they know it's a fruitless attempt; he's going to finish through that little contact anyways. It's not as simple as seeing who gets more shots at the rim to determine how many FT's they are allotted.

However when playing Durant, players tend to play him much tighter. One, he is actually a dangerous outside shooter, and two, he is much softer and weaker. One reason he gets more calls than Lebron and Carmelo is because he's weaker. This way, when he's fouled, it's a lot easier to spot. You'll see big guys like Lebron get hacked by some guard and it won't affect them at all; they just power through as if they were untouched. With Durant however, he's physically moved and you can clearly see the change to his shot. Basically, it's really difficult to miss a foul on Durant because it bothers him so much. Also, his arms are like giant squid tentacles, they flail around a lot, so it's really easy to hit them. In short, Risking the foul on Durant is much more effective than just letting him shoot.
Unstoppabull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 01:13 AM   #177
ripthekik
GIVEN NOT EARNED
 
ripthekik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,360
ripthekik has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unstoppabull


I haven't read 1 post in this thread, but being able to get FT's a part of the package. If it allows him to get a third of his 30 or so points, then yes he is a good scorer. As long as he can put points up in the board, I don't care how he does it. 1 point = 1 point.
ripthekik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 01:22 AM   #178
NumberSix
Big Booty Hoes!!
 
NumberSix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The Internets
Posts: 21,769
NumberSix has no real reputation yet.
Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
You simply don't watch enough of the games of all the players in question to make the claim that one player gets more phantom calls than the other.

It's called confirmation bias...and unless you've watched virtually every Thunder, Knicks, Lakers, and Rockets game...you simply can't say that.

But even if I concede that Durant and Harden get more BS calls. What is the ultimate impact of that? How often more is it happening. This is where the margins come in as small and what I was saying earlier.

Even if you say Durant isn't better at drawing fouls and he's just reffed differently, it's still only leading to 1.8 more free throws per game. I'm not saying that isn't a big difference, but Durant scoring an extra 1.6 ppg off undeserved free throws is simply not worth bitching about to the extreme some people are.
Who do you think first brought this to people's attention? I was the first one on here bitching about how soft Durant/OKC get called on offense but gets away with hacking on defense.

I remember I was going crazy during the OKC/Dallas series and some people finally saw what I was talking about but most people just kept telling me to "shut up" and "stop trolling", but people are finally catching up and realizing I was right all along.

It's not even the actual calls that fcuk it up. I know it only 1.6 points. It doesn't matter though. It's the message that the refs set one tone for one team and a different tone for the other.
NumberSix is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 01:27 AM   #179
NumberSix
Big Booty Hoes!!
 
NumberSix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The Internets
Posts: 21,769
NumberSix has no real reputation yet.
Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

When the refs set the tone for one team that "No, we're calling it tight tonight" but for OKC it's "No, we're going loose. We're gonna let you guys get in there and D up". That affects how you play. You can't set 2 different tones and then also go out of your way to make sure the other team is in the penalty a couple minutes into each quarter.
NumberSix is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 01:27 AM   #180
Fudge
Banned
 
Fudge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 17,752
Fudge posts stuff that is definitely making some people angryFudge posts stuff that is definitely making some people angryFudge posts stuff that is definitely making some people angry
Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unstoppabull
Here's a thought. Durant gets so many fouls, is the same reason Harden gets so many foul calls. It's not like James Harden down in Houston is some massively marketable superstar; you can change your game to make people foul you. I believe they both model their game at trying to draw fouls. Oh yea not to mention Harden's a better flopper than any of them.

It does make sense tho. People will generally play off of LeBron more often, to stop his drives to the rim. No one will want to foul LeBron when he drives to the rim because they know it's a fruitless attempt; he's going to finish through that little contact anyways. It's not as simple as seeing who gets more shots at the rim to determine how many FT's they are allotted.

However when playing Durant, players tend to play him much tighter. One, he is actually a dangerous outside shooter, and two, he is much softer and weaker. One reason he gets more calls than Lebron and Carmelo is because he's weaker. This way, when he's fouled, it's a lot easier to spot. You'll see big guys like Lebron get hacked by some guard and it won't affect them at all; they just power through as if they were untouched. With Durant however, he's physically moved and you can clearly see the change to his shot. Basically, it's really difficult to miss a foul on Durant because it bothers him so much. Also, his arms are like giant squid tentacles, they flail around a lot, so it's really easy to hit them. In short, Risking the foul on Durant is much more effective than just letting him shoot.


How hard is it to understand? It's this, and that's as simple as it gets.
Fudge is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:59 PM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy