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Old 03-31-2013, 08:00 PM   #16
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Default Re: On the topic of eras

Quote:
Originally Posted by jstern
I mean the way evolution works, physically people will become weaker, but interestingly, skull show that the human brain has been getting smaller the last 10,000 years in a very steady fashion. That's really odd.

I haven't read this page, but I assume it talks about what I'm talking about

http://discovermagazine.com/2010/sep...g#.UVjYo1dNVI0

I remember also reading that the technological advancements that we have made (thanks to very few smart people) has made life less challenging for us and as such, more dumb people are getting to pass down their genes, and so we're becoming dumber. But that as technology keeps progressing and getting more complicated, then we will continue getting smarter.



I like this post. Very well said.


This thread has room for consistent discussion, so let's keep it active.


A lot of people laugh at that one Cousy gif...people also fail to recognize palming rules. I'm sure that if you give Cousy a basketball right now he'll show off better handles than he does in that gif.
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:19 PM   #17
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Default Re: On the topic of eras

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Originally Posted by Whoah10115
I like this post. Very well said.


This thread has room for consistent discussion, so let's keep it active.


A lot of people laugh at that one Cousy gif...people also fail to recognize palming rules. I'm sure that if you give Cousy a basketball right now he'll show off better handles than he does in that gif.

Cousy is the perfect example when talking about style and skills. I remember seeing a video of him dribbling, not during a game, and it looked so archaic by today's standards. But I saw the intense skills needed to do what he was doing. Basically moving around really fast while dribbling straight up and down really fast. It looked so archaic, but at the same time what he was doing required a lot more skills than the way we dribble now, which is bouncing the ball, palming it slightly to get some control and then bouncing it again.

Anyone from today looking at him would think that a teenager doing the same And1 moves over and over in the play ground would be able to run a team much better than him, while at the same time steal the ball from him every time he had it, thinking that Cousy would have the same skills as some old guy who just touched a basketball for the first time. But if you take that Cousy and bring him to the present, I don't know if he'll be effective in the NBA, but he'll definitely be able to adjust his dribbling style, and be more than capable of doing any kind of crossover.
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:45 PM   #18
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Default Re: On the topic of eras

Good thread and finally someone can present some questions without a moderator deleting the thread. I am probably the only one here that can be taken serious due to watching games live for the last 25 years, watching game footages since 1995 and I have 18 years of internet experience.

I will answer your questions in bold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djahjaga
Some pertinent questions to get the discussion going. Don't necessarily have to answer all of them:

Why are some of the most mind-boggling stats from older eras?

There really wasn't any mind boggling stats except for those that came from Wilt. He was an athletic freak compared to his peers. A good example would be; imagine Shaq playing against the girl's varsity team. Other examples would be the lack of teams and players back in the day too. So very few competition and the lesser the guys there are the more you know how to play against them.



What does that imply about the relative strength of the league then to now?

The league was much more weaker and I will explain in depth as it will pertain to another question.


What does it say about the way basketball (or basketball trends) has evolved or changed?

The game has evolved only in the sense that it's a business. The game is still played with the same purpose but now it's much more of a business. Back in the days, a janitor can tryout for his local NBA team. Today, we can't do that and they only want players that played during childhood.


What are we to make of older players actually saying that players now are faster and stronger*?

They are correct and age hasn't affected their thinking. Players are faster and stronger today. The proof is in the Olympics when records are being shattered so easily. Majority of records that are being held are from today and 20 years ago.


How, if at all, can/could we make sense/compare the players/league then to the players/league now?**

You really have to make that judgement yourself.


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Old 03-31-2013, 08:45 PM   #19
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Default Re: On the topic of eras

Here is a video uploaded by ISH poster, PHILA. It is a few 9-13 yr olds from 1961-62 performing Globetrotter and And1 dribbling antics. It stands to reason that if elementary kids had the ability to dribble between their legs and do crossovers in the early 60's that the greatest players in the world at that time such as Cousy, West, and Big O could also. The issue is, those types of dribbling antics were not viewed as "real" basketball, but more as "gimmick" basketball.
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:48 PM   #20
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Default Re: On the topic of eras

Also, some of these great players of the past are Era-Specific players who excelled during their period.

They would have no chance in today's league.
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:50 PM   #21
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Default Re: On the topic of eras

Quote:
Originally Posted by jstern
Cousy is the perfect example when talking about style and skills. I remember seeing a video of him dribbling, not during a game, and it looked so archaic by today's standards. But I saw the intense skills needed to do what he was doing. Basically moving around really fast while dribbling straight up and down really fast. It looked so archaic, but at the same time what he was doing required a lot more skills than the way we dribble now, which is bouncing the ball, palming it slightly to get some control and then bouncing it again.

Anyone from today looking at him would think that a teenager doing the same And1 moves over and over in the play ground would be able to run a team much better than him, while at the same time steal the ball from him every time he had it, thinking that Cousy would have the same skills as some old guy who just touched a basketball for the first time. But if you take that Cousy and bring him to the present, I don't know if he'll be effective in the NBA, but he'll definitely be able to adjust his dribbling style, and be more than capable of doing any kind of crossover.

It doesn't matter.

A skill is a skill. Cousy could have easily adopted and dribbled like players of today but the one aspect that will hurt him is how athletic players are today.

Let's be honest here, Cousy would not make a roster today.
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:53 PM   #22
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Default Re: On the topic of eras

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmacattack33
There's also just more people period now than there were a generation ago.

More people = bigger talent pool

Today's top 3 players are the top 3 out of 6 billion.

In 1990, the top 3 were the top 3 out of 5 billion.

Not to mention the game is much more international now than it was in 1990 (let alone 1970).

Basically this.

If we were to combine all the era's that existed in the NBA and put them into one pool.

I guarantee a majority of players on a team's roster would be modern players.

You may get your exceptions like Wilt or Kareem but Cousy and Pistol Pete don't get a roster spot over a CP3 or Tim Hardaway.
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:54 PM   #23
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Default Re: On the topic of eras

Quote:
I am probably the only one here that can be taken serious due to watching games live for the last 25 years

Your father was 17 25 years ago.
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:00 PM   #24
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Default Re: On the topic of eras

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlip
Here is a video uploaded by ISH poster, PHILA. It is a few 9-13 yr olds from 1961-62 performing Globetrotter and And1 dribbling antics. It stands to reason that if elementary kids had the ability to dribble between their legs and do crossovers in the early 60's that the greatest players in the world at that time such as Cousy, West, and Big O could also. The issue is, those types of dribbling antics were not viewed as "real" basketball, but more as "gimmick" basketball.

Oh, that's excellent.

Yeah, you see the "gimmick" sentiment with And-1 basketballers, too. Don't get me wrong, those guys are skilled, and entertaining, but no one would mistake them for NBA players.

I think it's obvious that the evolution of dribbling was a deliberate process, a lot of which was dependent on rule changes involving palming. So, saying someone like West had a weak handle just because he doesn't do crossovers and in-and-outs the way it's done today is asinine.

I still can't help but think, though, that sometimes it looks a little too easy to steal the ball from him, and other players.

On Open Court (anyone know where I can watch season 2, btw?), they talk about Magic's handle and there's a semi-serious debate about what that means. I think Reggie loses it (in his typical, "Are you kidding ME?" fashion) when Kenny says Lebron has a better handle than Magic. That's another debate (and surely dribbling has changed even from the 80s), but two things they said stood out:

-Kenny said (paraphrasing) that a person's handle is on display when they're doubled and they don't feel the need to pass out of it. There are videos of Cousy doing this (most notably in the Finals to dribble the clock out against the St. Louis Hawks, I think). And players like Meadowlark Lemon of the Trotters were also famous for their dribbling ability. Isiah later on could do this. And someone like CP3 or AI from the more modern era, as well.

-Reggie said that, even then, they all thought they could steal the ball from Magic. The guy dribbled it so damn high. But none of them really could, or did. I think this demonstrates that people weren't just idiots back then, but that there was a level of complexity behind Magic's dribble that isn't easily visible from footage. I've seen people swipe at his dribble only to have him make them pay by whipping it around his back and to a streaking teammate. Same with Bird, who wasn't a great ball-handler either (though it seems to me he's underrated in that regard, as well -- though I can't really talk, since I never watched him while he was playing.)

Do you guys think these comments remain true for someone like Cousy? Or West? Why is it that the D in some of these videos looks really inept sometimes?

"Coach" Nick had a similar comment in one of his old videos (and although he clearly loves the game, idk how much he respects older eras in terms of skill) and he says that he figures defenses hadn't evolved to recognize things like stripping a player when he's dribbling with his right going left, or vice versa, or forcing a man in one direction by shifting the opposite foot up.

What do you guys think about that? I know that on an old Red on Roundball episode, Russ explains how he would guard someone (McAdoo, I think it was, then in his prime) and the brunt of his strategy would be to force him left (he called it "cutting his options in half"). Nowadays, that's a basic strategy that we use in pickup.

Anyway, a lot to think about, to be sure. I'd love to hear your thoughts!
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:01 PM   #25
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Default Re: On the topic of eras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Your father was 17 25 years ago.

Don't even respond to him, man. Seriously, let's just ignore the trolls ITT. For once.
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:01 PM   #26
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Default Re: On the topic of eras

Also, in regards why people think the older generations were so great, we as humans tend to always respect those before us. In a rational conversation we must factor out the respect we have for them and look at it objectively.

No way a guy like Pistol Pete, Cousy or Mikan will be able to play basketball like today.

Athletic ability trumps skills all day unless you have that perfect balance.

There are only 3 players in history that has that balance; Kareem, Jordan and Kobe.

Only thing I admit is that they were probably more skillful back in the days.
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:04 PM   #27
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Default Re: On the topic of eras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Your father was 17 25 years ago.
Dude is a troll don't bother trying to seriously respond to him. I must admit he's pretty entertaining though.
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:15 PM   #28
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Default Re: On the topic of eras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djahjaga
Don't even respond to him, man. Seriously, let's just ignore the trolls ITT. For once.

So I am a troll because I have an opinion on the matter?

You are basically repeating other people's opinion and have nothing on this subject matter. Your opinion is a popular one.

Those that have an opinion of their own also thinks you are a troll too.

I'm not saying "Bird sucks" or "Cousy is garbage". I have already gave a well-thought out reason why they are looked upon as legends and why they can't play in the modern league.
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:05 PM   #29
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Default Re: On the topic of eras

9empire and kennethgriffin have to be the same person. LeBron fans are the most annoying but you two are incomprehensibly stupid, regardless of how old you really are or how hard you're trolling. I feel like I actually lost time reading two posts that didn't take me a minute total to read. You've been unblocked for one day and I already know I have to put you and silk on ignore already...probably bandwagonsplash. That tazb guy is better than any of you.


The part about it being a business is hilarious tho. The leap is out of this world.

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Old 03-31-2013, 10:06 PM   #30
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Default Re: On the topic of eras

Quote:
Originally Posted by jstern
Cousy is the perfect example when talking about style and skills. I remember seeing a video of him dribbling, not during a game, and it looked so archaic by today's standards. But I saw the intense skills needed to do what he was doing. Basically moving around really fast while dribbling straight up and down really fast. It looked so archaic, but at the same time what he was doing required a lot more skills than the way we dribble now, which is bouncing the ball, palming it slightly to get some control and then bouncing it again.

Anyone from today looking at him would think that a teenager doing the same And1 moves over and over in the play ground would be able to run a team much better than him, while at the same time steal the ball from him every time he had it, thinking that Cousy would have the same skills as some old guy who just touched a basketball for the first time. But if you take that Cousy and bring him to the present, I don't know if he'll be effective in the NBA, but he'll definitely be able to adjust his dribbling style, and be more than capable of doing any kind of crossover.



That's a good point about the skill needed...I haven't seen anyone bounce the ball like that without looking stupid. He actually had control over the ball. That made it more difficult to take guys on or break down a defense but it required a lot of ball-handling ability.
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