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Old 03-31-2013, 09:54 PM   #46
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauk
First of all, please let it be known that there is no "This era is bad / This era is good" agenda or "This player was better / This player was worse" agenda here or whatever agenda.... it is strictly stats based on 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.... it means nothing more than speculation, take it for what it literally is....

Just thought i would share with you a "research" i just did, i really was curious about what some of the all-time great players would hypothetically averaged if they had to work with the exact same league/team pace........... did some research (google/bball-reference) and then calculated those players averages per 100 possessions a game & 40 mpg.... i took only one of their best statistical seasons....

I picked 12 players for now, will do more later... feel free to ask about any other players numbers you wish to see "transformed" and i will do it....

-------------------------------------------------------------

(not a must read) How do you calculate this? Example:

First we must transform a players averages to 100 poss. per game...
Lets say you averaged 24.3 ppg for your career in 102.1 poss. per game...
you divide 24.3 with 102.1, which gives us 0.238.... which means that you averaged 0.238 ppg per possession..... now we just multiply 0.238 with 100 and that gets us to 23.8... 23.8 ppg in 100 possessions...

Now we go to the minutes, lets say you averaged 38.4 mpg for your career while averaging 23.8 ppg in 100 possessions a game.... so we divide 23.8 with 38.4, which gives/means 0.619 points per minute.... so, 0.619 pts x 40 minutes = 24.8 ppg...

Result = You averaged 24.8 ppg in 40 mpg with 100 poss. per game.

------------------------------------------------------------

If you are curious, here is the factual estimations of league history possessions per game:

2000s & current poss. per game = 90-100
1990s poss. per game = 90-100
1980s poss. per game = 100-110
1970s poss. per game = 110-130
1960s poss. per game = 140-160

Lets just go with 100 possessions and 40 mpg...

------------------------------------------------------------

Oscar Robertson 1961-62:

18.5 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 6.9 apg in 100 poss. per game. & 40 mpg.

30.8 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 11.4 apg in his ~150 poss. per game. & 44.3 mpg.

Wilt Chamberlain 1961-62:

27.7 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 1.3 apg in 100 poss. per game. & 40 mpg.

50.4 ppg, 25.7 rpg, 2.4 apg in his ~150 poss. per game. & 48.5 mpg.

Bill Russell 1961-62:

11.2 ppg, 13.9 rpg, 2.7 apg in 100 poss. per game. & 40 mpg.

18.9 ppg, 23.6 rpg, 4.5 apg in his ~150 poss. per game. & 45.2 mpg.

Shaquille O'Neal 1999-00:

31.8 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 4.1 apg in 100 poss. per game & 40 mpg.

29.7 ppg, 13.8 rpg, 3.8 apg in his 93.3 poss. per game. & 40.0 mpg.

Larry Bird 1986-87:

28.0 rpg, 9.2 rpg, 7.6 apg in 100 poss. per game & 40 mpg.

28.1 rpg, 9.2 rpg, 7.6 apg in his 99 poss. per game. & 40.5 mpg.

Magic Johnson 1986-87:

25.8 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 13.1 apg in 100 poss. per game. & 40 mpg.

23.9 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 12.2 apg in his 102 poss. per game. & 36.3 mpg.

Kobe Bryant 2005-06:

37.9 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 4.8 apg in 100 poss. per game & 40 mpg.

35.4 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.5 apg in his 91 poss. per game. & 41 mpg.

Hakeem Olajuwon 1992-93:

27.9 ppg, 14.0 rpg, 3.7 apg in his 100 poss. per game & 40 mpg.

26.1 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.5 apg in 94.4 poss. per game & 39.5 mpg.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar 1971-72:

26.2 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 3.4 apg in 100 poss. per game & 40 mpg.

34.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, 4.6 apg in his ~120 poss. per game & 44.2 mpg.

Jerry West 1965-66:

20.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.0 apg in 100 poss. per game & 40 mpg.

31.3 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 6.1 apg in his ~150 poss. per game & 40.7 mpg.

LeBron James 2009-10::

33.3 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 9.6 apg in 100 poss. per game & 40 mpg

29.7 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 8.6 apg in his 91.4 poss. per game & 39.0 mpg.

Michael Jordan 1988-89:

33.2 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 8.1 apg in 100 poss. per game & 40 mpg

32.5 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 8.0 apg in his 97.0 poss. per game & 40.2 mpg.




Some fun facts:

1. Wilt's & Oscar's best productions were actually mortal (still impressive though)... they just happened in a very different time thats all..

2. Per possession & minute Michael Jordan & Lebron James average the best overall productions for their career....... and per possession & minute Jordan, Lebron and Shaq had easily the most productive single seasons in NBA history.....

3. Magic Johnson's & Lebron James current career averages would be triple double career averages with ~150 poss. per game.

4. Per possession & minute Kobe Bryant in 2005-06 had actually the 2nd most impressive point production in NBA history.... #1 is Michael Jordan in 1986-87 who averaged 38.6 ppg in 100 poss. per game & 40 mpg....


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Old 03-31-2013, 10:01 PM   #47
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauk
For 1960s i have been reading/finding different results, anything from specific teams averaging 126 to 145 (a book i have here at home, saying it was 145 poss. p/g in 1967) 130 to 156 and to a whooping 165 poss. per game and the best teams (Russell/Wilt/Oscar teams) averaged the most.... not being sure what to go with i went with something in the in the middle, 150

If you're not sure how to come up with a reasonable estimate, then the logical thing to do would be to not venture any figure on the subject whatsoever.
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Old 03-31-2013, 11:18 PM   #48
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imdaman99
lebron got blocked twice in 1 minute by kobe. per 100 possessions, he gets blocked by kobe 68 times in 40 mins.

i did not use a calculator, so dont quote me.



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Old 04-16-2013, 07:41 PM   #49
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Although this topic involves speculation, the OP is using flawed information. Instead, let's sue actual comparative statistical information.

The starting baseline numbers of relevance should be 118.8 ppg, 108 FGA/game, 37 FTA/game, 61 rpg, and the always overlooked stat of .426 eFG%. Those were the league averages in Wilt's historic '62 season. And, no, his personal team averages should not be used. Wilt took his team, on his back, and drove them to their numbers...in that season. He was generally a "catch-and-shoot" shooter, unlike MJ and Kobe, players who would dribble for several seconds in orer to get their shots.

Also, keep in mind that Wilt's numbers were achieved playing nearly very minute of every game. Why is that important? Because the OP is basing his evaluations on a 40 mpg basis. Think about just how unfair that is to a player who played every minute of every game, in a season in which he also played a ton of back-to-back games, including separate stretches of six, three-in-a-rows; three, four-in-a-rows; and even another separate stretch of, five games in five days.

Does anyone in their right mind believe that a Shaq, in 2000, who played a career high 40 mpg, would have continued to play at the same levels, playing 48 mpg? Would his rebounds per game have gone from 13.6 rpg in 40 mpg, to a projected 16.3 rpg playing 48 mpg? Would he have continued to shoot .574 from the field, playing an exhausting 48 mpg? And doing so in a schedule of 20 or so back-to-back games? Keep in mind that Shaq's playoff numbers, with one days rest, were considerly less than when he had two. Meanwhile, Wilt was playing in an era of playoff series with not only back-to-back games, but with even three-in-a-row.

And given Chamberlain's history of playing 45.8 mpg over his entire career, and then an unfathomable 47.2 mpg over the course of his 160 post-season games, or that his worst season was "only" 42.3 mpg (on a Laker team that went 69-13 and on their games by NBA record margins), or that in his last season, at age 36, he was playing 43.2 mpg...there would have been no era in which he would only b playing 40 mpg. I suspect that a prime Chamberlain would have led the league just like he did nearly ever season...so that would mean at least 42-43- an even 44 mpg (jst take a look at the league leaders year-after-year.) So, even in Shaq's 2000 season, in which he played that career high 40 mpg, Michael Finley was leading the leaue at 42.2 mpg.

So then, the reverse has to also be taken into account...that Wilt's efficiencies wold surely rise only playing a hypothetical 40 mpg. Would Wilt's rebound rate of 25.7 rpg, at 48.5 mpg, have been a straight drop to 21.4 rpg? Or would his rebounding efficiency have risen somewhat to counter the drop? And if so, how much? Same with his FG%. Surely his .506 FG% would have been considerably higher playing less minutes in a season which had the most demandin schedule in NB history.

Let's begin. Since I mentioned Shaq's 2000 season, we'll start there.

Once again here were Shaq's numbers. 40 mpg, 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, and on .574 shooting. In that '99-00 season, the NBA averaged 97.5 ppg, 43 rpg, and had an eFG% of .478. And, the average team took 82 FGAs per game, and 25 FTAs per game.

In Wilt's '61-62 season, Chamberlain averaged 39.5 FGAs per game, in a league that averaged 108 FGA, and he averaged 17 FTAs per game, in a league that shot 37 FTAs per team on average. He shot .506 from the field (in a league that had an eFG% of .426...more on that later), and shot .613 from the line.

Here we go...reduce Wilt's FGAs down to 99-00 levels (82/108 x 39.5), and he would have averaged an even 30 FGAs per game. Multiply his .506 FG% by that 30 FGA, and he would have averaged 15.2 FGM per game, or 30.4 ppg from the field. Reduce his 17 FTAs down to '99-00 levels, (37/25 x 17) and he would have taken 11.4 FTA per game. Since he shot .613 from the line that season, he woul have made an even 7 FT's per game. 30.4 + 7 = 37.4 ppg.

Multiply that 37.4 ppg by .825 (40/48.5), and he would have averaged 30.9 ppg in 2000, playing 40 mpg.

But wait...we forgot something. Wilt's '62 NBA ony had an eFG% of .426, while Shaq's '00 had an eFG of .478. So what you ask? If we are going to hypothetically reduce Wilt's '62 season numbers down to '00 levels, we also have to raise the FG%'s to equalize the conditions. Why? In the 99-00 season, the average NBA team averaged 97.5 ppg. If we don't equalize the FG%'s, then the average team from '61-62 will only average 32.3 made FGAs per game, or 64.6 ppg on FGAs. Then factor in that they would only average 18 ppg on their 25 FTAs (.727), ...for a total of 84.6 ppg...or over 13 ppg less than the average team in 2000.

How do we equalize it again? Raise the league FG% to an adjusted .478. Suddenly, in '62, the average team would be making 39.2 FGM per game, or 78.4 ppg. Add the 18 ppg that they did from the line, and then the average team in '62 would be scoring 96.4 ppg. By the way, the reason it is not equal has a considerable amount to do with Wilt's FT shooting. Take a look at the NBA's FT% before Wilt arrived. In the 58-59 season, the NBA shot .756 from the line (in 2000 it was .755.) Furthermore, in the season after Wilt retired, '73-74, the NBA shot .771.

What does all of that have to do with Wilt's scoring average in '99-00? Once again, reducing his FGAs down to '00 levels, he would have taken 30 FGAs per game. But, instead of making 15.2 FGs per game (based on his .506 FG%), he would make an adjusted 17.1 FGs per game (.478/.426, x .506) on an adjusted FG% of .568. 17.1 x2 = 34.2 ppg, + 7 ppg from the line, or 41.2 ppg. Reduce 41.2 ppg by playing 40 mpg, instead of 48.5 mpg, and he would have averaged an even 34.0 ppg (on .568 shooting.)

Of course, you could do this much easily. The average NBA team averaged 118.8 ppg in '62, and 97.5 ppg in '00. Divide 97.5 by 118.8, and you get .821. Multiply 50.4 ppg by .821, and you have 41.4 ppg. Multiply 41.4 by .825 and Wilt's scoring average, in 40 mpg, would have been 34.2 ppg.

How about rebounding? In the 61-62 season, the NBA averaged about 61 rpg per team (after adjusting for team rebounds.) In Shaq's '99-00 season, it was at 43 rpg. This is relatively easy. 43/61 = .705. Multiply Wilt's 25.7 rpg times .705, and it omes out atw18.1 rpg. Multiply 18.1 times .825, and it becomes an adjusted 14.9 rpg, which would have led the league(and here again, that is a Wilt only playing 40 mpg.)


You can the above in any of the OP's scenarios. How about MJ's '86-87 season?

88 FGA, 30.5 FTA, 44 rpg, and on an eFG% of .488.

Chamberlain's numbers would then be, 32.2 FGAs, and 14 FTAs per game. His FG% would have risen to .580 (488/426 x 506), or 18.7 FGM per game, or 37.4 ppg. And he woud have made 8.6 FTs per game (14 x .613), or a total of 46 ppg. Multiply 46 x .825, and he woud have averaged 38 ppg...playing the same mpg as MJ (37.1 ppg on 40 mpg.)

And he would have averaged 18.5 rpg playing 48 mpg (25.7 rpg x .721), or 15.3 rpg...playing 40 mpg.

So, to recap, Wilt, in 86-87, would have averaged 38 ppg, on .580 shooting, and 15.3 rpg...all while only playing 40 mpg.

Once again, though, the above numbers don't take into account the extra efficiency "boost" that a Chamberlain, only playing 40 mpg, instead of 48.5 mpg, would have surely received.

Go ahead...use those formulas for any of the OP's listings. Wilt's 61-62 season stands as the greatest scoring season of all-time.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:21 PM   #50
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
Although this topic involves speculation, the OP is using flawed information. Instead, let's sue actual comparative statistical information.

The starting baseline numbers of relevance should be 118.8 ppg, 108 FGA/game, 37 FTA/game, 61 rpg, and the always overlooked stat of .426 eFG%. Those were the league averages in Wilt's historic '62 season. And, no, his personal team averages should not be used. Wilt took his team, on his back, and drove them to their numbers...in that season. He was generally a "catch-and-shoot" shooter, unlike MJ and Kobe, players who would dribble for several seconds in orer to get their shots.

Also, keep in mind that Wilt's numbers were achieved playing nearly very minute of every game. Why is that important? Because the OP is basing his evaluations on a 40 mpg basis. Think about just how unfair that is to a player who played every minute of every game, in a season in which he also played a ton of back-to-back games, including separate stretches of six, three-in-a-rows; three, four-in-a-rows; and even another separate stretch of, five games in five days.

Does anyone in their right mind believe that a Shaq, in 2000, who played a career high 40 mpg, would have continued to play at the same levels, playing 48 mpg? Would his rebounds per game have gone from 13.6 rpg in 40 mpg, to a projected 16.3 rpg playing 48 mpg? Would he have continued to shoot .574 from the field, playing an exhausting 48 mpg? And doing so in a schedule of 20 or so back-to-back games? Keep in mind that Shaq's playoff numbers, with one days rest, were considerly less than when he had two. Meanwhile, Wilt was playing in an era of playoff series with not only back-to-back games, but with even three-in-a-row.

And given Chamberlain's history of playing 45.8 mpg over his entire career, and then an unfathomable 47.2 mpg over the course of his 160 post-season games, or that his worst season was "only" 42.3 mpg (on a Laker team that went 69-13 and on their games by NBA record margins), or that in his last season, at age 36, he was playing 43.2 mpg...there would have been no era in which he would only b playing 40 mpg. I suspect that a prime Chamberlain would have led the league just like he did nearly ever season...so that would mean at least 42-43- an even 44 mpg (jst take a look at the league leaders year-after-year.) So, even in Shaq's 2000 season, in which he played that career high 40 mpg, Michael Finley was leading the leaue at 42.2 mpg.

So then, the reverse has to also be taken into account...that Wilt's efficiencies wold surely rise only playing a hypothetical 40 mpg. Would Wilt's rebound rate of 25.7 rpg, at 48.5 mpg, have been a straight drop to 21.4 rpg? Or would his rebounding efficiency have risen somewhat to counter the drop? And if so, how much? Same with his FG%. Surely his .506 FG% would have been considerably higher playing less minutes in a season which had the most demandin schedule in NB history.

Let's begin. Since I mentioned Shaq's 2000 season, we'll start there.

Once again here were Shaq's numbers. 40 mpg, 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, and on .574 shooting. In that '99-00 season, the NBA averaged 97.5 ppg, 43 rpg, and had an eFG% of .478. And, the average team took 82 FGAs per game, and 25 FTAs per game.

In Wilt's '61-62 season, Chamberlain averaged 39.5 FGAs per game, in a league that averaged 108 FGA, and he averaged 17 FTAs per game, in a league that shot 37 FTAs per team on average. He shot .506 from the field (in a league that had an eFG% of .426...more on that later), and shot .613 from the line.

Here we go...reduce Wilt's FGAs down to 99-00 levels (82/108 x 39.5), and he would have averaged an even 30 FGAs per game. Multiply his .506 FG% by that 30 FGA, and he would have averaged 15.2 FGM per game, or 30.4 ppg from the field. Reduce his 17 FTAs down to '99-00 levels, (37/25 x 17) and he would have taken 11.4 FTA per game. Since he shot .613 from the line that season, he woul have made an even 7 FT's per game. 30.4 + 7 = 37.4 ppg.

Multiply that 37.4 ppg by .825 (40/48.5), and he would have averaged 30.9 ppg in 2000, playing 40 mpg.

But wait...we forgot something. Wilt's '62 NBA ony had an eFG% of .426, while Shaq's '00 had an eFG of .478. So what you ask? If we are going to hypothetically reduce Wilt's '62 season numbers down to '00 levels, we also have to raise the FG%'s to equalize the conditions. Why? In the 99-00 season, the average NBA team averaged 97.5 ppg. If we don't equalize the FG%'s, then the average team from '61-62 will only average 32.3 made FGAs per game, or 64.6 ppg on FGAs. Then factor in that they would only average 18 ppg on their 25 FTAs (.727), ...for a total of 84.6 ppg...or over 13 ppg less than the average team in 2000.

How do we equalize it again? Raise the league FG% to an adjusted .478. Suddenly, in '62, the average team would be making 39.2 FGM per game, or 78.4 ppg. Add the 18 ppg that they did from the line, and then the average team in '62 would be scoring 96.4 ppg. By the way, the reason it is not equal has a considerable amount to do with Wilt's FT shooting. Take a look at the NBA's FT% before Wilt arrived. In the 58-59 season, the NBA shot .756 from the line (in 2000 it was .755.) Furthermore, in the season after Wilt retired, '73-74, the NBA shot .771.

What does all of that have to do with Wilt's scoring average in '99-00? Once again, reducing his FGAs down to '00 levels, he would have taken 30 FGAs per game. But, instead of making 15.2 FGs per game (based on his .506 FG%), he would make an adjusted 17.1 FGs per game (.478/.426, x .506) on an adjusted FG% of .568. 17.1 x2 = 34.2 ppg, + 7 ppg from the line, or 41.2 ppg. Reduce 41.2 ppg by playing 40 mpg, instead of 48.5 mpg, and he would have averaged an even 34.0 ppg (on .568 shooting.)

Of course, you could do this much easily. The average NBA team averaged 118.8 ppg in '62, and 97.5 ppg in '00. Divide 97.5 by 118.8, and you get .821. Multiply 50.4 ppg by .821, and you have 41.4 ppg. Multiply 41.4 by .825 and Wilt's scoring average, in 40 mpg, would have been 34.2 ppg.

How about rebounding? In the 61-62 season, the NBA averaged about 61 rpg per team (after adjusting for team rebounds.) In Shaq's '99-00 season, it was at 43 rpg. This is relatively easy. 43/61 = .705. Multiply Wilt's 25.7 rpg times .705, and it omes out atw18.1 rpg. Multiply 18.1 times .825, and it becomes an adjusted 14.9 rpg, which would have led the league(and here again, that is a Wilt only playing 40 mpg.)


You can the above in any of the OP's scenarios. How about MJ's '86-87 season?

88 FGA, 30.5 FTA, 44 rpg, and on an eFG% of .488.

Chamberlain's numbers would then be, 32.2 FGAs, and 14 FTAs per game. His FG% would have risen to .580 (488/426 x 506), or 18.7 FGM per game, or 37.4 ppg. And he woud have made 8.6 FTs per game (14 x .613), or a total of 46 ppg. Multiply 46 x .825, and he woud have averaged 38 ppg...playing the same mpg as MJ (37.1 ppg on 40 mpg.)

And he would have averaged 18.5 rpg playing 48 mpg (25.7 rpg x .721), or 15.3 rpg...playing 40 mpg.

So, to recap, Wilt, in 86-87, would have averaged 38 ppg, on .580 shooting, and 15.3 rpg...all while only playing 40 mpg.

Once again, though, the above numbers don't take into account the extra efficiency "boost" that a Chamberlain, only playing 40 mpg, instead of 48.5 mpg, would have surely received.

Go ahead...use those formulas for any of the OP's listings. Wilt's 61-62 season stands as the greatest scoring season of all-time.
You saved me alot of time with this response. However even though Wilt's 61-62 season is the greatest scoring season of all time, Jordan's 86-87 scoring season beats his 62-63 season.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:27 PM   #51
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Seems like an accurate enough depiction.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:34 PM   #52
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

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Originally Posted by TheTenth
You saved me alot of time with this response. However even though Wilt's 61-62 season is the greatest scoring season of all time, Jordan's 86-87 scoring season beats his 62-63 season.

MJ and Kobe's greatest scoring seasons were/are, two of the three greatest of all-time.

As for Wilt, I have long maintained that his peak seasons were probably either 65-66, or 66-67. His 65-66 season was his last great scoring season, but it wasn't just the 33.5 ppg, 24.6 rpg, 5.2 apg, and .540 FG% (in a league that shot .433 overall), but take a look at his pure domination of his opposing HOF centers. He absolutely owned Russell, Thurmond, and Bellamy in his head-to-heads. And, while Reed was now playing PF alongside Bellamy, in the season before, 64-65, when he was playing center, Chamberlain averaged 40 ppg against him in nine head-to-head meetings.

Almost everyone acknowledges that his 66-67 was among the greatest ever. he "only" averaged 24.1 ppg, but he did ocassionally explode just to prove he could. He had the NBA high game that season (58 points on 26-34 shooting, as well as a 42 point game on 18-18 shooting), and the scoring champ, Rick Barry (35.6 ppg) "thanked" Wilt for "letting" him win it. BTW, in the very next season, Wilt had games of 52, 53, 53, and an NBA high of 68. His .683 FG% was staggering, considering that the league shot .441, and the next highest mark was .521.

And I have always wondered how his 69-70 season would have played out had he not blown out his knee. In his first nine games he was leading the league in scoring at 32.2 ppg. (on .579 shooting BTW), including games of 38 against reigning MVP Wes Unseld, and 42 on star Bob Rule, as well as a 25 point game against rookie Kareem, in which he outplayed him in every facet of the game. In that ninth game, he had scored 33 points on 13-14 shooting, too.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:47 PM   #53
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

There is a reason I don't get involved in stats debates even though you're usually baited here to....look at the walls of text.

At the end of the day, stats can be misleading and interpretations of stats usually are. Such a great debate - I learned nothing new.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:55 PM   #54
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

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Originally Posted by PickernRoller
There is a reason I don't get involved in stats debates even though you're usually baited here to....look at the walls of text.

At the end of the day, stats can be misleading and interpretations of stats usually are. Such a great debate - I learned nothing new.

Debates usually just leave people just more ingrained in their opinions but unless you didn't read everything or have confirmation bias, I doubt you learned NOTHING new. Even if it was something trivial, you probably took at least something away from the posts in this thread. But everything is misleading, not just stats so why even debate on anything? Stats are less misleading than opinions since numbers don't have emotions or agendas behind them (at least that I know of.) Maybe the people who influence them have agendas, but not the numbers themselves haha.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:56 PM   #55
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunksby
Why per 100? Why not 120 or 130? Per 100 obviously will favor modern day basketball players' numbers.
The number of possessions doesn't matter. It can be 100, 130, 400, 9 million, etc. it doesn't matter.

Why doesn't it matter?

Because he made everything equal. Here is an example:

If Bill averages 20 points on 90 possessions per game, and Frank averages 30 points on 110 possessions a game, how can you compare them? Well, first you have to figure out how many points they average in just ONE possession.

The way you figure this out is to divide the points by the number of possessions. So for Bill, 20 divided by 90 = 0.222. For Frank, 30 divided by 110 = 0.272. So that means Bill averages 0.222 points per one possession, and Frank averages 0.272 points per one possession.

So now, all you have to do is multiply those numbers by whatever number of possessions you want.

Want to do 100 possessions? 0.222 times 100 = 22.2 points per 100 possessions for Bill. 0.272 times 100 = 27.2 points per 100 possessions for Frank.

How about 150 possessions? 0.222 times 150 = 33.3 points. 0.272 times 150 = 40.8.


So it doesn't matter what number of possessions you choose. Frank scores more per one possession, so he'd score more for any number of possessions.
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:19 PM   #56
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Im typing on my phone so I dont feel lime quoting but im siding more with OP than the other two posters who are basically saying you cant keep up tgat sort of efficiency over 40 mpg (basically aims at Shaq). IMO, its not saying here this is what Shaq or Kobe or Lebron would average with 40 mpg but considering all the variations between the old and modern era the biggest stat divider is the pace. Are you guys yelling me that the GREATS of todays physically dominant era are not as capable physically of keeping up with the pace of the physical prehistoric like athleticism of a Oscar rob or wilt???? I think these numbers are in the ballpark of what would be appropriate if we are trying to look at a players ABILITY moreso over 40 mins in a perfect world where conditioning/injuries and pace was equal for everyone. You can always say "well todays iso ball player uses more % of a teams possesions" but are you really trying to say that the games of a Wilt/Russell/Oscar are really gonna thrive in the halfcourt instead of their circus like pace where Antoni like defense would at least be the league avg??? 2 sides to every argument. Its funny to me how all these old ass players get exposed and Bill Russell ends up as a less athletic Tyson Chandler and everyones nostalgia metr hits offended
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:40 PM   #57
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

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Originally Posted by MoBe1Kanobi
Im typing on my phone so I dont feel lime quoting but im siding more with OP than the other two posters who are basically saying you cant keep up tgat sort of efficiency over 40 mpg (basically aims at Shaq). IMO, its not saying here this is what Shaq or Kobe or Lebron would average with 40 mpg but considering all the variations between the old and modern era the biggest stat divider is the pace. Are you guys yelling me that the GREATS of todays physically dominant era are not as capable physically of keeping up with the pace of the physical prehistoric like athleticism of a Oscar rob or wilt???? I think these numbers are in the ballpark of what would be appropriate if we are trying to look at a players ABILITY moreso over 40 mins in a perfect world where conditioning/injuries and pace was equal for everyone. You can always say "well todays iso ball player uses more % of a teams possesions" but are you really trying to say that the games of a Wilt/Russell/Oscar are really gonna thrive in the halfcourt instead of their circus like pace where Antoni like defense would at least be the league avg??? 2 sides to every argument. Its funny to me how all these old ass players get exposed and Bill Russell ends up as a less athletic Tyson Chandler and everyones nostalgia metr hits offended
Its not the minutes differences which should be accounted for but the pace differences which renders lower FG% for some players in the 60s and higher FG% for 80s players, which in turn makes them have higher Points/100 possesions if not correctly changed.
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Old 04-16-2013, 10:30 PM   #58
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTenth
Its not the minutes differences which should be accounted for but the pace differences which renders lower FG% for some players in the 60s and higher FG% for 80s players, which in turn makes them have higher Points/100 possesions if not correctly changed.

Im not followin u exactly.. What r the variables that are rendering lower FG % for pre 80s players? I was of the understanding that the difference in ppg was because of a slowung of the pace
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Old 04-16-2013, 11:01 PM   #59
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

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Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
MJ and Kobe's greatest scoring seasons were/are, two of the three greatest of all-time.

As for Wilt, I have long maintained that his peak seasons were probably either 65-66, or 66-67. His 65-66 season was his last great scoring season, but it wasn't just the 33.5 ppg, 24.6 rpg, 5.2 apg, and .540 FG% (in a league that shot .433 overall), but take a look at his pure domination of his opposing HOF centers. He absolutely owned Russell, Thurmond, and Bellamy in his head-to-heads. And, while Reed was now playing PF alongside Bellamy, in the season before, 64-65, when he was playing center, Chamberlain averaged 40 ppg against him in nine head-to-head meetings.

Almost everyone acknowledges that his 66-67 was among the greatest ever. he "only" averaged 24.1 ppg, but he did ocassionally explode just to prove he could. He had the NBA high game that season (58 points on 26-34 shooting, as well as a 42 point game on 18-18 shooting), and the scoring champ, Rick Barry (35.6 ppg) "thanked" Wilt for "letting" him win it. BTW, in the very next season, Wilt had games of 52, 53, 53, and an NBA high of 68. His .683 FG% was staggering, considering that the league shot .441, and the next highest mark was .521.

And I have always wondered how his 69-70 season would have played out had he not blown out his knee. In his first nine games he was leading the league in scoring at 32.2 ppg. (on .579 shooting BTW), including games of 38 against reigning MVP Wes Unseld, and 42 on star Bob Rule, as well as a 25 point game against rookie Kareem, in which he outplayed him in every facet of the game. In that ninth game, he had scored 33 points on 13-14 shooting, too.

Your two posts reveal a most interesting inquiry. I also find your user name to be intriguing.
I've come back from a nice trip away myself, to find one of the youngsters anxiously waiting to tell me he had been using my user name to make some... rather irrational posts on ISH. He was very upset that my reputation was 'tarnished' (nice word for a kid, I thought) and that I'd lost one of my gateways to the world lol. I'm afraid instead of punishing him in some way (as his parents recommended) I just pointed out that ISH is, after all, merely a pleasant diversion, and my self esteem, however humble, doesn't really rest on an internet bulletin board.But, tempests and teacups aside, it's great to see what appears to be an old friend on here..... and if I may add, a very apt username!

To the point - great as that '67 season was, I've always thought Chamberlain was as good or even better in '68 - a season for which he gets very little credit, because of the Sixer squad's collapse under all the injuries in the playoffs.
His stats absolutely declined year over year - almost right across the board - but the way he had.... more or less learned, in a way, to completely take over games.... just has no rival as far as I've ever seen. Wilt had learned how to completely destroy other team's offenses while still playing at his 1967 level on the offensive side of the court.
It may be nostalgia, like many ISH guys have for Jordan or Bird, or whoever it is for them.... but those are the greatest seasons I've seen from an individual player.
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Old 04-16-2013, 11:04 PM   #60
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

jlauber welcome back friend, we were worried about you
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