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Old 03-31-2013, 02:52 PM   #31
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Are we seriously supposed to believe that the OP didn't purposefully pick a criteria where Lebron came out on top? In fact, I guarantee that he took all of Jordan's best seasons from from 87-90, which are statistically considered his best, and specifically went with the season where Jordan didn't have a statistical edge in any of those categories , which coincidentally was the season he scored the less and played at the higher pace.

Anyway, this is misleading. You can't simply correlate stats with pace and minutes.

First of all, fatigue plays a factor in both cases, with more minutes and higher pace meaning that they are playing a larger percentage of the time at a greater fatigue.

Second of all, superstars in general don't take up an equal % of possessions when minutes and pace differ.

In many cases when a superstar plays less minutes, both him and his teammates will try to compensate for the missing of his impact while he's off the court, by playing through him more of the time when he's on the court.

And then, in most cases when pace is higher, higher pace has a lot to do with greater ball movement. High pace teams are rarely, if ever, the result of isolation and ball dominance of one player such as Lebron. Its the result of trying to get good shots by pushing the ball, which is almost impossible to do by relying too much on one player. And also, just like with minutes, there's a lesser desire and need for a superstar to have his presence felt on the same % of possessions, knowing that he will get more opportunities with more possessions already. Bottom line is, there's basically no way a team would get to 100 possessions per game in the modern era with the style of play Cleveland was playing with Lebron.

I'm not saying pace and minutes is irrelevant, just that its really not that simple, and when they don't really differ that much, like if its 2-3 mpg or 5-6 possessions per game, there's really not much of a point of considering it.

Last edited by guy : 03-31-2013 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 03-31-2013, 03:41 PM   #32
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Lightbulb Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

I've been trying to tell people about Wilt and the 50s/60s era exactly this. People are like OMG 50 ppg or 25 rpg!! Oscar triple double!! Well there were so many more possessions and the era was just not fully developed either.
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Old 03-31-2013, 03:46 PM   #33
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

lebron got blocked twice in 1 minute by kobe. per 100 possessions, he gets blocked by kobe 68 times in 40 mins.

i did not use a calculator, so dont quote me.
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Old 03-31-2013, 04:03 PM   #34
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imdaman99
lebron got blocked twice in 1 minute by kobe. per 100 possessions, he gets blocked by kobe 68 times in 40 mins.

i did not use a calculator, so dont quote me.



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Old 03-31-2013, 04:04 PM   #35
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Assists are as inflated in the 80's as rebounds were in the 60's. Scoring is based on the same principle across eras...# shots taken and made.
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Old 03-31-2013, 04:12 PM   #36
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlip
Assists are as inflated in the 80's as rebounds were in the 60's. Scoring is based on the same principle across eras...# shots taken and made.

That's an eloquent way of looking at it, but, just as shooting percentages were greatly deflated in the 60s, so was scoring.

Which makes what Wilt did even more freaking unbelievable.

The fact that someone could actually destroy the records for both several times over is mind blowing.



I did like the thread, btw, OP. Whether or not you had an agenda (and, call me crazy, but I don't think you do), I liked the stats. Would like to see more done.

Perhaps, KG's MVP season, Duncan's 2 MVP seasons, Durant's current season, some of Hondo's best seasons in the 70s, Bill Walton, more of Jerry West, more of Kobe, maybe AI, and then some specialists (just so we can see some really ridiculous numbers inflated or brought down to Earth) like Eaton, Bol, Ben Wallace.
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Old 03-31-2013, 04:39 PM   #37
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guy
Are we seriously supposed to believe that the OP didn't purposefully pick a criteria where Lebron came out on top? In fact, I guarantee that he took all of Jordan's best seasons from from 87-90, which are statistically considered his best, and specifically went with the season where Jordan didn't have a statistical edge in any of those categories , which coincidentally was the season he scored the less and played at the higher pace.

Anyway, this is misleading. You can't simply correlate stats with pace and minutes.

First of all, fatigue plays a factor in both cases, with more minutes and higher pace meaning that they are playing a larger percentage of the time at a greater fatigue.

Second of all, superstars in general don't take up an equal % of possessions when minutes and pace differ.

In many cases when a superstar plays less minutes, both him and his teammates will try to compensate for the missing of his impact while he's off the court, by playing through him more of the time when he's on the court.

And then, in most cases when pace is higher, higher pace has a lot to do with greater ball movement. High pace teams are rarely, if ever, the result of isolation and ball dominance of one player such as Lebron. Its the result of trying to get good shots by pushing the ball, which is almost impossible to do by relying too much on one player. And also, just like with minutes, there's a lesser desire and need for a superstar to have his presence felt on the same % of possessions, knowing that he will get more opportunities with more possessions already. Bottom line is, there's basically no way a team would get to 100 possessions per game in the modern era with the style of play Cleveland was playing with Lebron.

I'm not saying pace and minutes is irrelevant, just that its really not that simple, and when they don't really differ that much, like if its 2-3 mpg or 5-6 possessions per game, there's really not much of a point of considering it.



Absolutely the best post in this thread. From beginning to end. I think I might just quote it randomly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
I've been trying to tell people about Wilt and the 50s/60s era exactly this. People are like OMG 50 ppg or 25 rpg!! Oscar triple double!! Well there were so many more possessions and the era was just not fully developed either.


Read poster above you.
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Old 03-31-2013, 04:54 PM   #38
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

The original post may be slanted, but if people really believe that Wilt averaged 50 points a game in a league as difficult as the one we know in modern times, you're insane. Oscar, Wilt, Russell etc. were all human beings and not somehow magically better than Kobe, LeBron or Michael. Seeing those stats compared to what we see today should actually point you in the opposite direction.
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Old 03-31-2013, 04:57 PM   #39
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa0
The original post may be slanted, but if people really believe that Wilt averaged 50 points a game in a league as difficult as the one we know in modern times, you're insane. Oscar, Wilt, Russell etc. were all human beings and not somehow magically better than Kobe, LeBron or Michael. Seeing those stats compared to what we see today should actually point you in the opposite direction.



No one is really arguing that.
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Old 03-31-2013, 05:21 PM   #40
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
No one is really arguing that.

Can we get some unbiased, well-analyzed opinions on this topic, then?

Why are some of the most mind-boggling stats from older eras? What does that imply about the relative strength of the league then to now? What does it say about the way basketball (or basketball trends) evolved? What are we to make of older players actually saying that players now are faster and stronger? How, if at all, can we make sense/compare the players/league then to the players/league now (if I'm giving you full hypothetical ability, there's no point in saying "you can't compare them")?

I find myself arguing either side and going in circles. I'd really like to hear some unbiased opinions, well-informed opinions on the matter.
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Old 03-31-2013, 06:17 PM   #41
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djahjaga
Can we get some unbiased, well-analyzed opinions on this topic, then?

Why are some of the most mind-boggling stats from older eras? What does that imply about the relative strength of the league then to now? What does it say about the way basketball (or basketball trends) evolved? What are we to make of older players actually saying that players now are faster and stronger? How, if at all, can we make sense/compare the players/league then to the players/league now (if I'm giving you full hypothetical ability, there's no point in saying "you can't compare them")?

I find myself arguing either side and going in circles. I'd really like to hear some unbiased opinions, well-informed opinions on the matter.


This isn't the thread for it...I'd like someone to make that thread tho.
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Old 03-31-2013, 06:23 PM   #42
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunksby
Why per 100? Why not 120 or 130? Per 100 obviously will favor modern day basketball players' numbers.
lol fail. it won't change anything as far as who looks best. multiply all the numbers by 1.2 if you want 120. same people will look good.
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Old 03-31-2013, 06:25 PM   #43
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
This isn't the thread for it...I'd like someone to make that thread tho.

I will make it right now! I hope to get your opinion on it!
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Old 03-31-2013, 06:29 PM   #44
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djahjaga
Can we get some unbiased, well-analyzed opinions on this topic, then?

Why are some of the most mind-boggling stats from older eras? What does that imply about the relative strength of the league then to now? What does it say about the way basketball (or basketball trends) evolved? What are we to make of older players actually saying that players now are faster and stronger? How, if at all, can we make sense/compare the players/league then to the players/league now (if I'm giving you full hypothetical ability, there's no point in saying "you can't compare them")?

I find myself arguing either side and going in circles. I'd really like to hear some unbiased opinions, well-informed opinions on the matter.

Isn't it really only rebounding and Wilt's scoring? He's the only player whose scoring is mind blowing. I think it's readily admitted by most that there were more rebounds during the 60's, but remove Wilt's scoring and nobody from the 60's averaged anymore ppg during any season than MJ's or Kobe's best season. (I know about Baylor's '62 season, but he only played a little over half a season.)
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Old 03-31-2013, 07:53 PM   #45
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Default Re: Some of the All-Time greats averages in 100 poss. per game and 40 mpg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psileas
1. Not buying the 150 possessions thing about the 60's, sorry.

You shouldn't; those numbers are way too high. A more realistic pace estimate for the 1962 Warriors would be somewhere in the range of 130 possessions per game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guy
Are we seriously supposed to believe that the OP didn't purposefully pick a criteria where Lebron came out on top? In fact, I guarantee that he took all of Jordan's best seasons from from 87-90, which are statistically considered his best, and specifically went with the season where Jordan didn't have a statistical edge in any of those categories , which coincidentally was the season he scored the less and played at the higher pace.

Anyway, this is misleading. You can't simply correlate stats with pace and minutes.

First of all, fatigue plays a factor in both cases, with more minutes and higher pace meaning that they are playing a larger percentage of the time at a greater fatigue.

Second of all, superstars in general don't take up an equal % of possessions when minutes and pace differ.

In many cases when a superstar plays less minutes, both him and his teammates will try to compensate for the missing of his impact while he's off the court, by playing through him more of the time when he's on the court.

And then, in most cases when pace is higher, higher pace has a lot to do with greater ball movement. High pace teams are rarely, if ever, the result of isolation and ball dominance of one player such as Lebron. Its the result of trying to get good shots by pushing the ball, which is almost impossible to do by relying too much on one player. And also, just like with minutes, there's a lesser desire and need for a superstar to have his presence felt on the same % of possessions, knowing that he will get more opportunities with more possessions already. Bottom line is, there's basically no way a team would get to 100 possessions per game in the modern era with the style of play Cleveland was playing with Lebron.

I'm not saying pace and minutes is irrelevant, just that its really not that simple, and when they don't really differ that much, like if its 2-3 mpg or 5-6 possessions per game, there's really not much of a point of considering it.

Well said, and you're absolutely right.
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