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Old 03-17-2013, 11:06 AM   #76
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Default Re: What is the worst finals MVP performance in modern history?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NumberSix
Although I think KG deserved FMVP, that doesn't mean PP had a bad finals. I'd say it's easily Kobe's '10 FMVP.


This Troll and his hate for Kobe


No doubt KG deserved that FMVP. Ray over PP is just
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:12 AM   #77
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Default Re: What is the worst finals MVP performance in modern history?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaaaaaH
This Troll and his hate for Kobe


No doubt KG deserved that FMVP. Ray over PP is just
How is it "hate"?

Kobe '10 is a pretty popular response in here. It's not just "Kobe haters". It's obviously a common and perfect reasonable opinion.

And the KG thing, you obviously agree. So, where's the "hate"?
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:15 AM   #78
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Default Re: What is the worst finals MVP performance in modern history?

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Originally Posted by NumberSix
How is it "hate"?

Kobe '10 is a pretty common response in here. It's not just "Kobe haters". It's obviously a valid and perfect reasonable opinion.

And the KG thing, you obviously agree. So, where's the "hate"?


Im not even just talking about this thread. You are bias towards Kobe no matter what the topic is .
Kobe '10 EASILY having the Worst Finals GTFO. Either you really hate Kobe or you just dont watch basketball.
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:22 AM   #79
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Default Re: What is the worst finals MVP performance in modern history?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaaaaaH
Im not even just talking about this thread. You are bias towards Kobe no matter what the topic is .
Kobe '10 EASILY having the Worst Finals GTFO. Either you really hate Kobe or you just dont watch basketball.
I actually defend Kobe quite a lot too. It's not my fault if you only want to pay attention to the negative.
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:29 AM   #80
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Default Re: What is the worst finals MVP performance in modern history?

The trolling in this thread has reached epic proportions. I guess that's to be expected with the Lakers getting into the playoffs now and all the haters crawling out from under the woodworks.

Here are the stats for the FMVPs since 00
PTS R A S B FG%
00 - Shaq - 38.0 16.7 2.3 1.0 2.7 61%
01 - Shaq - 33.0 15.8 4.8 0.4 3.4 57%
02 - Shaq - 36.3 12.3 3.8 0.5 2.8 59%
03 - Duncan - 24.2 17.0 5.3 1.0 5.3 49%
04 - Billups - 21.0 3.2 5.2 1.2 0.0 51%
05 - Duncan - 20.6 14.1 2.1 0.4 2.1 42%
06 - Wade - 34.7 7.8 3.8 2.7 1.0 47%
07 - Parker - 24.5 5.0 3.3 0.8 0.0 57%
08 - Pierce - 21.8 4.5 6.3 1.2 0.3 43%
09 - Kobe - 32.4 5.6 7.4 1.4 1.4 43%
10 - Kobe - 28.6 8.0 3.9 2.1 0.7 41%
11 - Dirk - 26.0 9.7 2.0 0.7 0.7 42%
12 - Lebron - 28.6 10.2 7.4 1.6 0.4 47%

Lets look at this purely from a STATISTICAL stand point. Are you really telling me that 10 Kobe has worse stats than 11 Dirk? I guess everyone is picking on 10 Kobes FG%. How about Duncan in 05? 42% as a PF? Or Pierce in 08? Kobe had the points and the rebounds in 10. Yes his FG% was poor but that was against a GREAT Boston D lets not forget.

I'd say Dirk 11 Duncan 05 and Pierce 08 all had worse STATISTICAL FMVP statistics.
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:35 AM   #81
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Default Re: What is the worst finals MVP performance in modern history?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NumberSix
I actually defend Kobe quite a lot too. It's not my fault if you only want to pay attention to the negative.

Sure you do

LOL
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:37 AM   #82
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Default Re: What is the worst finals MVP performance in modern history?

Quote:
Originally Posted by strike
The trolling in this thread has reached epic proportions. I guess that's to be expected with the Lakers getting into the playoffs now and all the haters crawling out from under the woodworks.

Here are the stats for the FMVPs since 00
PTS R A S B FG%
00 - Shaq - 38.0 16.7 2.3 1.0 2.7 61%
01 - Shaq - 33.0 15.8 4.8 0.4 3.4 57%
02 - Shaq - 36.3 12.3 3.8 0.5 2.8 59%
03 - Duncan - 24.2 17.0 5.3 1.0 5.3 49%
04 - Billups - 21.0 3.2 5.2 1.2 0.0 51%
05 - Duncan - 20.6 14.1 2.1 0.4 2.1 42%
06 - Wade - 34.7 7.8 3.8 2.7 1.0 47%
07 - Parker - 24.5 5.0 3.3 0.8 0.0 57%
08 - Pierce - 21.8 4.5 6.3 1.2 0.3 43%
09 - Kobe - 32.4 5.6 7.4 1.4 1.4 43%
10 - Kobe - 28.6 8.0 3.9 2.1 0.7 41%
11 - Dirk - 26.0 9.7 2.0 0.7 0.7 42%
12 - Lebron - 28.6 10.2 7.4 1.6 0.4 47%

Lets look at this purely from a STATISTICAL stand point. Are you really telling me that 10 Kobe has worse stats than 11 Dirk? I guess everyone is picking on 10 Kobes FG%. How about Duncan in 05? 42% as a PF? Or Pierce in 08? Kobe had the points and the rebounds in 10. Yes his FG% was poor but that was against a GREAT Boston D lets not forget.

I'd say Dirk 11 Duncan 05 and Pierce 08 all had worse STATISTICAL FMVP statistics.
You can't include Duncan because of his defensive impact. He's out of this conversation right off the bat.

You have a case with dirk though. He'd get my vote for most overrated performance. People act like he was godlike when in actuality, he was just ok. He might get an edge over Kobe due to his late game heroics though.

Last edited by NumberSix : 03-17-2013 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:50 AM   #83
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Default Re: What is the worst finals MVP performance in modern history?

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Originally Posted by tazb
Kobe's easily. Gasol got robbed.
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:54 AM   #84
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Default Re: What is the worst finals MVP performance in modern history?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NumberSix
You can't include Duncan because of his defensive impact. He's out of this conversation right off the bat.

You have a case with dirk though. He'd get my vote for most overrated performance. People act like he was godlike when in actuality, he was just ok. He might get an edge over Kobe due to his late game heroics though.




Lets judge everything by numbers and dont consider impact from the game.

Dirk was Clearly the Best player on the court in that series and the Entire Playoffs.
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Old 03-17-2013, 12:01 PM   #85
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Default Re: What is the worst finals MVP performance in modern history?

Quote:
Originally Posted by strike
The trolling in this thread has reached epic proportions. I guess that's to be expected with the Lakers getting into the playoffs now and all the haters crawling out from under the woodworks.

Here are the stats for the FMVPs since 00
PTS R A S B FG%
00 - Shaq - 38.0 16.7 2.3 1.0 2.7 61%
01 - Shaq - 33.0 15.8 4.8 0.4 3.4 57%
02 - Shaq - 36.3 12.3 3.8 0.5 2.8 59%
03 - Duncan - 24.2 17.0 5.3 1.0 5.3 49%
04 - Billups - 21.0 3.2 5.2 1.2 0.0 51%
05 - Duncan - 20.6 14.1 2.1 0.4 2.1 42%
06 - Wade - 34.7 7.8 3.8 2.7 1.0 47%
07 - Parker - 24.5 5.0 3.3 0.8 0.0 57%
08 - Pierce - 21.8 4.5 6.3 1.2 0.3 43%
09 - Kobe - 32.4 5.6 7.4 1.4 1.4 43%
10 - Kobe - 28.6 8.0 3.9 2.1 0.7 41%
11 - Dirk - 26.0 9.7 2.0 0.7 0.7 42%
12 - Lebron - 28.6 10.2 7.4 1.6 0.4 47%

Lets look at this purely from a STATISTICAL stand point. Are you really telling me that 10 Kobe has worse stats than 11 Dirk? I guess everyone is picking on 10 Kobes FG%. How about Duncan in 05? 42% as a PF? Or Pierce in 08? Kobe had the points and the rebounds in 10. Yes his FG% was poor but that was against a GREAT Boston D lets not forget.

I'd say Dirk 11 Duncan 05 and Pierce 08 all had worse STATISTICAL FMVP statistics.

Damn Shaq.. those are real MVP-numbers.
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Old 03-17-2013, 12:11 PM   #86
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Default Re: What is the worst finals MVP performance in modern history?

I can understand KG over Pierce in 08 but not Ray

Ray shot better and defended Kobe well. However, Pierce also defended Kobe well and usually did it down the stretch of games. Pierce also had a bigger role in the offense especially after Rondo got banged up and as a result was out best play maker. So in that context i can understand why he shot a bit poorly but his overall impact was larger than Ray's
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Old 03-17-2013, 12:25 PM   #87
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Default Re: What is the worst finals MVP performance in modern history?

Quote:
Originally Posted by strike
The trolling in this thread has reached epic proportions. I guess that's to be expected with the Lakers getting into the playoffs now and all the haters crawling out from under the woodworks.

Here are the stats for the FMVPs since 00
PTS R A S B FG%
00 - Shaq - 38.0 16.7 2.3 1.0 2.7 61%
01 - Shaq - 33.0 15.8 4.8 0.4 3.4 57%
02 - Shaq - 36.3 12.3 3.8 0.5 2.8 59%
03 - Duncan - 24.2 17.0 5.3 1.0 5.3 49%
04 - Billups - 21.0 3.2 5.2 1.2 0.0 51%
05 - Duncan - 20.6 14.1 2.1 0.4 2.1 42%
06 - Wade - 34.7 7.8 3.8 2.7 1.0 47%
07 - Parker - 24.5 5.0 3.3 0.8 0.0 57%
08 - Pierce - 21.8 4.5 6.3 1.2 0.3 43%
09 - Kobe - 32.4 5.6 7.4 1.4 1.4 43%
10 - Kobe - 28.6 8.0 3.9 2.1 0.7 41%
11 - Dirk - 26.0 9.7 2.0 0.7 0.7 42%
12 - Lebron - 28.6 10.2 7.4 1.6 0.4 47%

Lets look at this purely from a STATISTICAL stand point. Are you really telling me that 10 Kobe has worse stats than 11 Dirk? I guess everyone is picking on 10 Kobes FG%. How about Duncan in 05? 42% as a PF? Or Pierce in 08? Kobe had the points and the rebounds in 10. Yes his FG% was poor but that was against a GREAT Boston D lets not forget.

I'd say Dirk 11 Duncan 05 and Pierce 08 all had worse STATISTICAL FMVP statistics.


I think Kobe's game 7 in 10 has a large impact on where people put that performance. With Dirk, his clutch play boosts his performance which wasn't anything special stats wise. Also, Dirk played a game sick as a dog and people factor that in as well.
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Old 03-17-2013, 12:43 PM   #88
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Default Re: What is the worst finals MVP performance in modern history?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaaaaaH


Lets judge everything by numbers and dont consider impact from the game.

Dirk was Clearly the Best player on the court in that series and the Entire Playoffs.

How did you miss that the entire point of my post was to NOT judge everything on numbers? Jeez.

anyhow, it's not called the "PMVP". We're talking about the finals. Dirk's finals were good. Not great.

He didn't have some kind of epic defensive impact and he did go on long stretches where his shot wasn't falling. Like I said though, even with his shot not falling, his late game heroics give him an edge.

What am I saying here that's not factually correct?

Last edited by NumberSix : 03-17-2013 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 03-17-2013, 12:46 PM   #89
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Default Re: What is the worst finals MVP performance in modern history?

1. The level of play in the 2010 finals, the level of defense, coaching, the value of rebounding , and the fact that half the players in the series couldn't buy a shot due to all these things need to be factored in. The degree of of offensive responsibility Kobe had in the series also needs to be contextualized. He scored an absurd clip of the teams actual points that series. His defensive impact should also be taken into account.

2. In Dirk's 2011 case the fact that he was the only consistent source of scoring for the Mav's and the fact that the offense was largely dependent on his ability to score needs to be recognized. He was by some distance the best and most important player on either team.

3.In Duncan's 2005 case. How did Duncan get dragged into this? He averaged 20,14,and 2 against one of the best defensive front courts this game has ever seen. When did 20 and 14 become bad. Jesus Christ.

As others mentioned he had a huge defensive impact - but it was more about the security of having him allowing perimeter defenders to do their thing than the other way around.
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Old 03-17-2013, 01:10 PM   #90
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Default Re: What is the worst finals MVP performance in modern history?

In order to Pau Gasol to have a legit case for the Finals MVP in 2010 he would have had to outscore Kobe AND be more efficient. This is based on the historical voting of the award.

Quote:
Today I want to look at this phenomenon statistically, and see how often the winning team's agreed-upon "best player" won Finals MVP honors, how the second bananas' numbers compared to the Alpha Dogs' during the Finals, and hopefully determine what kind of handicap a non-"Alpha Dog " faces when vying for the award.

Quote:
Given this info, we can identify these situations where the Finals MVP was most likely neither the winning team's best player nor its Alpha Dog:

2008 Boston Celtics - Alpha Dog/Best Player: Kevin Garnett ... Finals MVP: Paul Pierce
2007 San Antonio Spurs - Alpha Dog/Best Player: Tim Duncan ... Finals MVP: Tony Parker
2004 Detroit Pistons - Alpha Dog/Best Player: Rip Hamilton ... Finals MVP: Chauncey Billups
1989 Detroit Pistons - Alpha Dog/Best Player: Isiah Thomas ... Finals MVP: Joe Dumars
1988 L.A. Lakers - Alpha Dog/Best Player: Magic Johnson ... Finals MVP: James Worthy
1981 Boston Celtics - Alpha Dog/Best Player: Larry Bird ... Finals MVP: Cedric Maxwell
1980 L.A. Lakers - Alpha Dog/Best Player: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar ... Finals MVP: Magic Johnson
1979 Seattle Sonics - Alpha Dog/Best Player: Gus Williams ... Finals MVP: Dennis Johnson
1978 Washington Bullets - Alpha Dog/Best Player: Elvin Hayes ... Finals MVP: Wes Unseld
What can we glean from these anomalies?

Quote:
It looks like the second banana generally needs to outscore the Alpha Dog as a prerequisite to vie for Finals MVP honors. They also must shoot with more efficiency to have a chance. In a close series, these restrictions are loosened a bit; all you apparently need is to have a big game at the end of the series and for the Alpha Dog to have a disappointing one. (The only exception took place in 1979, when Dennis Johnson won over Gus Williams largely for his defense.)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6431

As usual the criticism of Kobe getting awarded something relies on him being judged by different standards than everybody else receiving that award in league history.
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