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Old 03-17-2013, 11:39 AM   #91
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Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

You're being shortsighted. Shaq was a force within himself, but he did not make those around him better players. Bird had that ability to take over a game by himself but his passing and general play, getting teammates involved, make him an incredible attacking threat. Shaq was a great defender on his man, Bird was an amazing team defender.

The thing is, Bird did what he did in a far tougher era, where he usually didn't have the best team in the league. Also, Bird was a far tougher match-up because of his height and skills with his contemporaries than Shaq was with his peers. There were other centers close to him, who could challenge him - and he isn't even the best during his career if we're being honest - whereas Bird was clearly the best SF and he played multiple positions.

Shaq IMO is simply on the 2nd tier of greats with the likes of Duncan, Kobe and Olajuwon. Bird dines with Jordan, Magic, KAJ, Russell and Wilt.
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Old 03-17-2013, 12:08 PM   #92
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Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Duncan easily. By far. Truly an insulting comparison to Duncan. He is a DPOY caliber paint protector and a defensive anchor. Bird is nothing more than an average defender at best. Couldn't dream of having the defensive impact of Duncan.
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Old 03-17-2013, 12:17 PM   #93
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Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
You're being shortsighted. Shaq was a force within himself, but he did not make those around him better players. Bird had that ability to take over a game by himself but his passing and general play, getting teammates involved, make him an incredible attacking threat. Shaq was a great defender on his man, Bird was an amazing team defender.

The thing is, Bird did what he did in a far tougher era, where he usually didn't have the best team in the league. Also, Bird was a far tougher match-up because of his height and skills with his contemporaries than Shaq was with his peers. There were other centers close to him, who could challenge him - and he isn't even the best during his career if we're being honest - whereas Bird was clearly the best SF and he played multiple positions.

Shaq IMO is simply on the 2nd tier of greats with the likes of Duncan, Kobe and Olajuwon. Bird dines with Jordan, Magic, KAJ, Russell and Wilt.

A lot of what you say is true, but I still don't see how any of that puts Shaq on a different tier than Bird.

But regardless, this is about Bird and Duncan. Obviously if you factor in longevity then it becomes a bit unfair in favor of Duncan as he's still going strong in year 16 capable of back to back 28/19 and 30/12 games all while still providing some of the best defense in the league.

Bird, at his very best, might have been a little better than Duncan at his best. I'll even just concede that...although I must point out that Duncan at his best is being wildly under-rated here.

But lets talk about impact and results. Because we could go back and forth forever about Bird being a better passer, shooter/scorer and more versatile and you saying that gives him the edge...and I could talk about Duncan being able to dominate the game on both ends...etc.

But I'll repeat it. 14 straight seasons over 50 wins...never been done before. 2nd highest is 12 by the 80's Lakers. Spurs did this with a lockout year last year...insane consistency. Mainstay of that streak is Duncan.

4 titles. Not once did he have an all nba teammate. Not once. I'll repeat that...not once. He did it 4 times and I think it's only been done by a handful of superstars in NBA history. The only guys to recently do it are Hakeem, Duncan, and Dirk...

Playoff performer. This is where I think Duncan surpasses Bird. Duncan just simply is the better playoff performer...and honestly, that is what matters the most. How these guys perform in the playoffs.
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Old 03-17-2013, 12:22 PM   #94
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Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
You're being shortsighted. Shaq was a force within himself, but he did not make those around him better players. Bird had that ability to take over a game by himself but his passing and general play, getting teammates involved, make him an incredible attacking threat. Shaq was a great defender on his man, Bird was an amazing team defender.

The thing is, Bird did what he did in a far tougher era, where he usually didn't have the best team in the league. Also, Bird was a far tougher match-up because of his height and skills with his contemporaries than Shaq was with his peers. There were other centers close to him, who could challenge him - and he isn't even the best during his career if we're being honest - whereas Bird was clearly the best SF and he played multiple positions.

Shaq IMO is simply on the 2nd tier of greats with the likes of Duncan, Kobe and Olajuwon. Bird dines with Jordan, Magic, KAJ, Russell and Wilt.

I think you need to go back and watch some '99, '00, '01 Shaq if you think he didn't make his teammates better by putting them in advantageous situations.
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Old 03-17-2013, 12:30 PM   #95
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Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

LOL at Shaq not making his teammates better.

Take Shaq off the Orlando Magic, the Lakers or the Heat and take a wild guess how far these teams would've made it. See the difference? That's how much Shaq made his teams better. None of those guys would've won these championships with only a "good" center instead of Shaq.
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Old 03-17-2013, 12:36 PM   #96
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Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
You're being shortsighted. Shaq was a force within himself, but he did not make those around him better players. Bird had that ability to take over a game by himself but his passing and general play, getting teammates involved, make him an incredible attacking threat. Shaq was a great defender on his man, Bird was an amazing team defender.

The thing is, Bird did what he did in a far tougher era, where he usually didn't have the best team in the league. Also, Bird was a far tougher match-up because of his height and skills with his contemporaries than Shaq was with his peers. There were other centers close to him, who could challenge him - and he isn't even the best during his career if we're being honest - whereas Bird was clearly the best SF and he played multiple positions.

Shaq IMO is simply on the 2nd tier of greats with the likes of Duncan, Kobe and Olajuwon. Bird dines with Jordan, Magic, KAJ, Russell and Wilt.

LOL at Bird being a tougher matchup than Bird. I don't remember the league changing the rules to make it harder for Bird.

And LOL about the "tougher era" crap. Bird's era was higher paced, so every single player got higher ppg, apg, rpg numbers than they would've gotten during the much slower paced second half of the 90s and first part of the 00s.
If anything, Bird hat it easier to produce great looking stats than Shaq.

Also, LOL at Bird "not having the best team in the league" nonsense. Take Shaq off his teams and compare those teams to the Celtics minus Bird. There's only one team where Shaq's team might've come out ahead talent-wise (the 4 HOFer Lakers team with geriatric Payton and old Malone), in all other comparisons, Bird's supporting cast was clearly superior. The only reason Shaq's teams were considered the best was Shaq himself.

Last edited by brain drain : 03-17-2013 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 03-17-2013, 01:12 PM   #97
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Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
I find it extremely hard to make a case for Bird having more impact as an offensive player. Clearly Bird was a more versatile offensive player, but all that matters is IMPACT.

Shaq destroyed teams defense. He would get the other team in foul trouble, get his team in an early bonus, the most unstoppable force down low, demanded double and triple teams regularly....and since he was a great passer in his prime, he made people around him better by creating wide open looks and wide open driving lanes.

There are two things to judging an offensive player. How well you can score and how effective you are at doing so, and how well you can make your teammates better by putting them in advantageous situations.

Shaq did this as well as anyone ever in his prime.

Also, the thing about his defense....a lot of what you said is true regarding when he got older, but we're talking about Shaq at his best. Under those guidelines he was clear cut and dry a more impactful defensive player than Bird. Nobody should question that, not even Birds most obvious homers.


Shaq was a solid defensive rookie and in his 2nd year. Outside of that, the only years he was very good were 99/00 and 00/01. Every other season was no more than average, really.



And on the offensive end, we're just going to disagree then.


Quote:
Originally Posted by brain drain
LOL at Shaq not making his teammates better.

Take Shaq off the Orlando Magic, the Lakers or the Heat and take a wild guess how far these teams would've made it. See the difference? That's how much Shaq made his teams better. None of those guys would've won these championships with only a "good" center instead of Shaq.



Someone doesn't understand what making teammates better means.
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Old 03-17-2013, 01:32 PM   #98
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Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
Shaq was a solid defensive rookie and in his 2nd year. Outside of that, the only years he was very good were 99/00 and 00/01. Every other season was no more than average, really.



And on the offensive end, we're just going to disagree then.






Someone doesn't understand what making teammates better means.

Who cares what Shaq was his rookie year? Or every year outside of '99 and '00? We're comparing Bird at his best vs. Shaq at his best, since that's how you evaluate greatness as evidence of your stance with Bird/Duncan.

The argument was at his best, which was '99/'00 and '00/'01. He was an anchor to the defense. Phil Jackson and every other person associated with that Lakers team would tell you the same thing.


I'm interested why you think Bird was a more impactful offensive player. You really didn't go into it any further than saying "well I think Bird is a better offensive player."
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Old 03-17-2013, 01:48 PM   #99
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Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Regular Season
Bird 24.3 pts / 10 reb / 6.3 asst / 1.7 steals 12 seasons & only 6 games in 1989
Duncan 20.1 pts / 11.2 reb / 3.1 asst / 2.2 blks 16 seasons

Playoffs
Bird 23.8 its / 10.3 reb / 6.5 asst / 1.8 stls
Duncan 22.3 pts / 12.1 reb / 3.4 asst / 2.5 blks

Which would you rather have 12 seasons of Bird or probably 18 seasons of Duncan (2 more years on his contract)? TD does whatever is necessary to win - (28/19 and 30/12/5 the past 2 games with TP out). I'd pick the defensive anchor (which is rare in today's game) who is still able to step up offensively when needed.

Neither won back to back so that argument is nil. The better competition argument is offset by the better team mates argument. The better peak argument (not that TD was by any means a slouch in 02-03) is offset by the longevity argument. Those who say it isn't close haven't a clue.

I feel that some are either seduced by memories of what was the heyday of basketball or by youtube videos (which are mostly highlights and who doesn't look great in highlights). I remember what it felt like back then waiting for the weekend and the big match ups BOS vs LAL and the anticipation involved.

There is something to be said about Duncan's consistency over 16 years even if he is boring and of course, it's harder to maintain high stats as the years go on. With satellite/cable/internet etc. it's easy to get saturated with the almost (every other) daily exposure (non-important games against the scrub teams) than the memories of BIG, IMPORTANT weekend games vs LAL. Even with his knee issues, Duncan is still one of the best big men in the league. Could Bird with his back issues still be considered one of the best perimeter players in the league (especially today with the plethora of great perimeter players with young, athletic legs)? How rare is it to have a skilled big man who plays both sides of the floor than an elite perimeter player?

Last edited by rmt : 03-17-2013 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 03-17-2013, 03:47 PM   #100
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Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmt
TD does whatever is necessary to win - (28/19 and 30/12/5 the past 2 games with TP out).

Yeah it's not like Bird dove for EVERY ball and smashed his face off of the floor, got a concussion and came back in to win the game or anything...
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Old 03-17-2013, 04:27 PM   #101
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Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
Who cares what Shaq was his rookie year? Or every year outside of '99 and '00? We're comparing Bird at his best vs. Shaq at his best, since that's how you evaluate greatness as evidence of your stance with Bird/Duncan.

The argument was at his best, which was '99/'00 and '00/'01. He was an anchor to the defense. Phil Jackson and every other person associated with that Lakers team would tell you the same thing.


I'm interested why you think Bird was a more impactful offensive player. You really didn't go into it any further than saying "well I think Bird is a better offensive player."



I mentioned his rookie season in his defense, as he never played defense. And in his two best defensive seasons he made All-Defensive Teams that he had no business making. There is no argument for him being a better defender than David Robinson in either of those seasons.


And being a big guy who plays good defense does not equate to anchoring. He never anchored anything. He worked harder, gave some effort on the pick n' roll, stuck to his man in the post, contested shots and attempted to put some pressure on guys going to the rim. He wasn't an anchor tho.
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Old 03-17-2013, 04:35 PM   #102
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Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
I mentioned his rookie season in his defense, as he never played defense. And in his two best defensive seasons he made All-Defensive Teams that he had no business making. There is no argument for him being a better defender than David Robinson in either of those seasons.


And being a big guy who plays good defense does not equate to anchoring. He never anchored anything. He worked harder, gave some effort on the pick n' roll, stuck to his man in the post, contested shots and attempted to put some pressure on guys going to the rim. He wasn't an anchor tho.

Wow...Prime Duncan was the definition of a defensive anchor. So much disrespect for that man.
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Old 03-17-2013, 04:44 PM   #103
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Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Quote:
Originally Posted by IGOTGAME
Wow...Prime Duncan was the definition of a defensive anchor. So much disrespect for that man.


??

I'm talking about Shaq.
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Old 03-17-2013, 05:52 PM   #104
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Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

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Originally Posted by Whoah10115
??

I'm talking about Shaq.

Shaq at his peak was a very good defensive anchor.
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Old 03-17-2013, 06:00 PM   #105
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Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

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Originally Posted by 2010splash
Duncan easily. By far. Truly an insulting comparison to Duncan.

Yeah, because he's being compared to some scrub here, right?

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