Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > NBA Forum

NBA Forum NBA Message Board - NBA Fan Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-16-2013, 07:15 PM   #61
Whoah10115
Linja Status
 
Whoah10115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,968
Whoah10115 is starting to rub some people the wrong way
Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucket_Nakedz
tim duncan is a system player. pop made him


Whoah10115 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2013, 09:10 PM   #62
Carbine
Facts Are Misleading
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: A Court Near You
Posts: 7,786
Carbine has decent reputationCarbine has decent reputation
Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

It's funny how people who argue Bird is greater because he was a better player in his prime than Duncan......then completely reverse it when we're talking about, for example....Bird vs Shaq.

Shaq was as effective an offensive player as Bird, or anyone else ever.

Shaq was a superior rebounder.

Shaq was a superior defender.

BTW, Shaq also has Bird killed in longevity and accolades.

More championships
More FMVP
More AS appearances
Four more All-NBA teams
One more All-Defensive team


....yet basically nobody arguing for Bird because they think he was superior in his prime to Duncan (Woah10115) and disregarding career longevity and achievements completely......would turn around and say Shaq was greater than Bird, even though it's the same reason they chose Bird over Duncan.

Shaq has the edge in longevity and achievements over Bird too, which makes it even more illogical.
Carbine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2013, 09:19 PM   #63
Jailblazers7
will-to-bigness
 
Jailblazers7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 22,449
Jailblazers7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableJailblazers7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableJailblazers7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableJailblazers7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableJailblazers7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableJailblazers7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableJailblazers7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableJailblazers7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableJailblazers7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableJailblazers7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableJailblazers7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginable
Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Honestly, there are prob only 3-4 player who can claim to have a better peak than Bird as an individual player. His bad back derailed his longevity but at his best Bird was pretty unbelievable.
Jailblazers7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2013, 09:19 PM   #64
ProfessorMurder
I am your soldier!
 
ProfessorMurder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: In the year 2525
Posts: 25,369
ProfessorMurder is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableProfessorMurder is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableProfessorMurder is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableProfessorMurder is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableProfessorMurder is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableProfessorMurder is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableProfessorMurder is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableProfessorMurder is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableProfessorMurder is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableProfessorMurder is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableProfessorMurder is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginable
Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
It's funny how people who argue Bird is greater because he was a better player in his prime than Duncan......then completely reverse it when we're talking about, for example....Bird vs Shaq.

Shaq was as effective an offensive player as Bird, or anyone else ever.

Shaq was a superior rebounder.

Shaq was a superior defender.

BTW, Shaq also has Bird killed in longevity and accolades.

More championships
More FMVP
More AS appearances
Four more All-NBA teams
One more All-Defensive team


....yet basically nobody arguing for Bird because they think he was superior in his prime to Duncan (Woah10115) and disregarding career longevity and achievements completely......would turn around and say Shaq was greater than Bird, even though it's the same reason they chose Bird over Duncan.

Shaq has the edge in longevity and achievements over Bird too, which makes it even more illogical.

A 7'1" 340 pound center averaged more rebounds than a 6'9" muscleless small forward? Stop the presses!

Are you going to bring up fg% and blocked shots next?

Don't act like Shaq was an otherworldy defender either... C'mon son.
ProfessorMurder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2013, 09:28 PM   #65
Carbine
Facts Are Misleading
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: A Court Near You
Posts: 7,786
Carbine has decent reputationCarbine has decent reputation
Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

I never said Shaq was a great defender, but his IMPACT was clearly more on that side of the ball than Bird.

Shaq was a legit rim protector and great post-defender. Add in the intimidation factor.....and you got more impact than Bird.

Rebounding matters. I don't care who played what position....bottom line is Shaq was clearly better at it.

Three basic areas a player should be graded on - impact as an offensive player, impact as a defensive player, and rebounding.
Carbine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2013, 09:28 PM   #66
Big#50
College star
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,969
Big#50 has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Duncan didn't captivate fans like Pajaro. Pajaro was one of a kind though. No fault to Tim.
Pajaro was the greatest offensive player imo.
Duncan the greatest defensive player.
Had Duncan played on a faster tempo team his averages would be 28/13. He proved he could get high scoring numbers when it was required.
When both struggled offensively, they both did what was necessary. Duncan took over games defensively. Pajaro took over games with his effort and energy.
Pajaro has the nostalgia advantage.
Duncan almost had a quad double to clinch the championship. Wasn't he robbed of two blocks????
It's close. It's ****ing close.
Duncan is my choice. And I wouldn't say I'm a fan of the guy.
Big#50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2013, 09:38 PM   #67
LeBird
Good High School Starter
 
LeBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 925
LeBird has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
Rebounding matters.

Bird went toe-to-toe with Moses Malone (a better rebounder than Shaq), which says enough about him rebounding. But Bird was a PF playing as an SF for a lot of his career so people don't exactly remember that.

I like Duncan, he is amongst the best of the 2nd tier of all-time greats but Bird is in the discussion for GOAT. Duncan isn't, and that's the difference.

Last edited by LeBird : 03-16-2013 at 09:41 PM.
LeBird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2013, 09:47 PM   #68
gengiskhan
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,574
gengiskhan has a bad reputationgengiskhan has a bad reputationgengiskhan has a bad reputation
Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
Bird went toe-to-toe with Moses Malone, which says enough about him rebounding. But Bird was a PF playing as an SF for a lot of his career so people don't exactly remember that.

I like Duncan, he is amongst the best of the 2nd tier of all-time greats but Bird is in the discussion for GOAT. Duncan isn't, and that's the difference.

/thread.

seriously! Thats the NAIL IN THE COFFIN.

In modern day NBA (1970 - Present) excluding the 50s & 60s & 40s...

Only 3 Players are considered UNQUESTIONABLE GOAT for their ability to either TRANSFORM or TRANSCEND the game forever.

1. Michael Jordan: TRANSENDED the game forever where the rules are completely changed post MJ era. (WHOLE GENERATION COPIES HIM)

2. Magic Johnson: TRANSFORMED the game where modern day PURE PLAYMAKING PGs copy him.

3. LARRY BIRD: TRANFORMED the game where mordern day PURE or POINT FORWARDS copy him (LBJ, Pippen, T-mac)

Where is dat Tim Duncan in this argument.

NOWHERE!
gengiskhan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2013, 10:29 PM   #69
Carbine
Facts Are Misleading
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: A Court Near You
Posts: 7,786
Carbine has decent reputationCarbine has decent reputation
Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
Bird went toe-to-toe with Moses Malone (a better rebounder than Shaq), which says enough about him rebounding. But Bird was a PF playing as an SF for a lot of his career so people don't exactly remember that.

I like Duncan, he is amongst the best of the 2nd tier of all-time greats but Bird is in the discussion for GOAT. Duncan isn't, and that's the difference.

It says enough about him rebounding? If by that you mean still clearly inferior to Shaq in that regard, then yes, yes it does.
Carbine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2013, 10:51 PM   #70
Whoah10115
Linja Status
 
Whoah10115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,968
Whoah10115 is starting to rub some people the wrong way
Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
It's funny how people who argue Bird is greater because he was a better player in his prime than Duncan......then completely reverse it when we're talking about, for example....Bird vs Shaq.

Shaq was as effective an offensive player as Bird, or anyone else ever.

Shaq was a superior rebounder.

Shaq was a superior defender.

BTW, Shaq also has Bird killed in longevity and accolades.

More championships
More FMVP
More AS appearances
Four more All-NBA teams
One more All-Defensive team


....yet basically nobody arguing for Bird because they think he was superior in his prime to Duncan (Woah10115) and disregarding career longevity and achievements completely......would turn around and say Shaq was greater than Bird, even though it's the same reason they chose Bird over Duncan.

Shaq has the edge in longevity and achievements over Bird too, which makes it even more illogical.



This post is one big fail.


First of all, if you think Shaq had a better peak than Larry Bird, then go ahead and think it. That you're talking like it's the accepted opinion is, in fact, wrong. Choosing a random player where you think it's applicable doesn't prove your point.

I could argue your ridiculous notion that Shaq was a better defender and had more impact. But I won't.

Mostly, your post is really everything that is wrong with the way people rank players nowadays. Your "can't have it both ways" argument has nothing to do with having your own opinion and basing it on basketball play.

Last edited by Whoah10115 : 03-16-2013 at 11:11 PM.
Whoah10115 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2013, 10:58 PM   #71
Carbine
Facts Are Misleading
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: A Court Near You
Posts: 7,786
Carbine has decent reputationCarbine has decent reputation
Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
This post is one big fail.


First of all, if you think Shaq had a better peak than Larry Bird, then go ahead and think it. That you're talking like it's the accepted opinion is, in fact, wrong. Choosing a random player where you think it's applicable doesn't prove your point.


Mostly, your post is really everything that is wrong with the way people rank players nowadays. Your "can't have it both ways" argument has nothing to do with having your own opinion and basing it on basketball play.

Shaq was as effective an offensive player as Bird, or anyone else ever.

Shaq was a superior rebounder.

Shaq was a superior defender.

Pretty damn hard to argue otherwise.

Maybe you take the "Bird was a much better passer, dribbler, outside shooter than Shaq" angle but again, the only thing that matters is IMPACT. That's literally the only thing that matters. Not how many things you can do effectively. With that understanding, Shaq is Birds equal as an offensive player.

Defense and rebounding are clear advantages for Shaq.
Carbine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2013, 11:11 PM   #72
LeBird
Good High School Starter
 
LeBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 925
LeBird has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
It says enough about him rebounding? If by that you mean still clearly inferior to Shaq in that regard, then yes, yes it does.

It means he was on par with one of the greatest rebounders of all time - someone even better than Shaq on the boards - when asked to so the casual mention that Shaq is better is disingenuous. Shaq was a center, Bird was a PF playing SF and averages only 0.9 rebounds less. And Bird had to contend with Parish and McHale in getting those rebounds.
LeBird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2013, 11:18 PM   #73
Anaximandro1
High School Varsity 6th Man
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 761
Anaximandro1 has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Duncan is better.He won 4 titles without All-NBA teammate.He controlled every aspect of the game.


7 straight games during the 03 WCSF and 03 WCF

G4 03 WCSF 36/9/5

G5 03 WCSF 27/14/5

G6 03 WCSF 37/16/4/2

G1 03 WCF 40/15/7/1

G2 03 WCF 32/15/5/3

G3 03 WCF 34/24/6/6

G4 03 WCF 21/20/7/4


G1 03 Finals 32/20/6/7

G3 03 Finals 21/16/7/3

G5 03 Finals 29/17/4/4

G6 03 Finals 21/20/10/8


Keep in mind that Duncan's production skyrockets against the NBA's elite.He outscores consistently his peers in the postseason.Duncan outscored Shaq in (1999,2002,2003,2008),Dirk in (2001,2003,2006,2009),Amare (2003,2007,2008) or Garnett (2001)


Quote:
Duncan Regular Season Career 20.2 pt,11.2 pt,3.1 as,2.2 blk


Playoffs Career H2H

Duncan 25.6 pt (49%),13.0 rb,3.8 as,2.4 blk (Spurs won series 1999,2003,2008)
Shaq 22.4 pt (53%),12.8 rb,2.2 as,2.8 blk (Lakers won series 2001,2002,2004)

Duncan 26.0 pt (54%),12.3 rb,3.6 as,1.9 blk (Spurs won series 2001,2003,2010)
Dirk 24.5 pt (50%), 10.1 rb,2.3 as,0.6 blk (Mavs won series 2006,2009)

Duncan 23.8 pt (53%),13.8 rb,3.0 as,2.9 blk (Spurs won series 2003,2005,2007,2008)
Amare 24.0 pt (51%),9.2 rb,0.9 as,1.8 blk (Suns won series 2010)

Duncan NBA Finals career 23.0 pt (48%) ,14.1 rb,3.0 as,3.0 blk (Spurs won 1999,2003,2005,2007)
Anaximandro1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2013, 11:29 PM   #74
Whoah10115
Linja Status
 
Whoah10115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,968
Whoah10115 is starting to rub some people the wrong way
Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
Shaq was as effective an offensive player as Bird, or anyone else ever.

Shaq was a superior rebounder.

Shaq was a superior defender.

Pretty damn hard to argue otherwise.

Maybe you take the "Bird was a much better passer, dribbler, outside shooter than Shaq" angle but again, the only thing that matters is IMPACT. That's literally the only thing that matters. Not how many things you can do effectively. With that understanding, Shaq is Birds equal as an offensive player.

Defense and rebounding are clear advantages for Shaq.



Larry Bird was a better offensive player than Shaq. Shaq was naturally more efficient. He wasn't even as good a scorer. Bird was better.


The defense thing is ridiculous and this is one of those things where "period" is inevitable. Shaq played subpar defense for most of his career. He wasn't a "great" post defender. he was very good, but if you put the ball on the floor he'd give up. He is the worst pick n' roll defender I've ever seen. He refused to come out on shooters. Rim-protection isn't shot-blocking. That's one element. Other elements are positioning, anchoring, covering, altering shots thru contests, fundamental play on the block, paint protection, intimidating. Intimidation is not looking at how big Shaq is. Intimidation is Ben Wallace. Intimidating is Dikembe Mutombo...that is personified. Shaq got you on the weak side, he blocked you if you tried to shoot over him. He didn't anchor your defense. He was a great player and a center, so we give him credit as a great defender. There is some revisionism about Bird being a liability, tho he was far too intelligent to get abused by people. Bird was as good a team defender as you'd find, a great post defender, a hustle player, and would make huge plays on D. Bird was better.


Shaq is a better rebounder. He was a center and Bird was a SF. But that's fine. After the last few years I finally understand a reason for people who think Shaq should have been a better rebounder than he was. I thought he was great, but I forgot that he didn't do shit on defense. How many boards would he get if he actually defended? He'd still be a double-double guy, but his rebounding would probably go down. Tho it was great the two years he should have been MVP.


But yes, like you said, Bird is the better passer. He's also the better off-ball player. That might not be important, as Shaq was a center, but just as with rebounds we'll take it into consideration. Bird made players better. He was smarter, more clutch, a better team player, not a stat whore.


Those are much clearer advantages, so you know.

Last edited by Whoah10115 : 03-16-2013 at 11:34 PM.
Whoah10115 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2013, 11:29 PM   #75
Bucket_Nakedz
Buckle up
 
Bucket_Nakedz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Anchorage, AK
Posts: 2,746
Bucket_Nakedz is popular on this boardBucket_Nakedz is popular on this boardBucket_Nakedz is popular on this boardBucket_Nakedz is popular on this board
Default Re: Tim Duncan vs Larry Bird

btw i was just juxtin bout timmy being a product of pops. hes in my top 10, but i still feel bird is better, therefore the goat white baller.
Bucket_Nakedz is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:56 AM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site















Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy