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Old 03-18-2013, 12:50 PM   #121
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Who did they face and what were their defensive ratings? You clamor for context but present very little.

Kobe put up numbers with Shaq. He put up numbers with Kwame. He put them up with Gasol. He continues to put them up with Dwight. 4 very different offensive forces. The only constant is Kobe putting up numbers. The notion that Kobe's 3 peat numbers are the result of Shaq is unsupported by the evidence. In fact I would hypothesize that the majority of Kobe's greatest offensive performances came when he was the undisputed sole player worthy of "attention" on the floor.
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Old 03-18-2013, 02:18 PM   #122
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Who did they face and what were their defensive ratings? You clamor for context but present very little.

I'm not going to bother looking up everyone's DRTG cause I've done this before with you. And I remember that the difference of the average DRTG of the teams Jordan faced in his 6 title runs vs teams Kobe faced in his 5 title runs was like 2-3, meaning like a 2-3% difference, meaning if Kobe's opponents had a 100 DRTG and Jordan's were a 103 DRTG, then Kobe's opponents allowed 1 point per possession, while Jordan's allowed 1.03 points per possession. Sure, overall stats should be very slightly down as a result of that, but that's for teams as a whole, not individuals, which means individual statistic differences as a whole would be virtually non-existant, and not explain why one player had considerably better stats then someone who's apparently his equal or better. Bringing up that small of a difference in DRTG is just as dumb as taking two players with close to equal stats and making a big deal out of 1 of them shooting 45.5 FG% and the other shooting 46.0 FG%.

Bringing up the DRTG doesn't really offer that much valuable context, as the difference is almost always nearly irrelevant. On the other hand saying dumb shit like Kobe in the three-peat had less help then Lebron in his title run by pointing out he was playing with one all-star while Lebron was playing with two all-stars, basically implying that all all-stars are at the same level by not pointing out that the one Kobe was playing with actually won MVP 1 year, was top 3 in MVP voting and all-nba first team all 3 years while Lebron's two all-stare teammates didn't come close to any of that, is completely ignorant of context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Kobe put up numbers with Shaq. He put up numbers with Kwame. He put them up with Gasol. He continues to put them up with Dwight. 4 very different offensive forces. The only constant is Kobe putting up numbers. The notion that Kobe's 3 peat numbers are the result of Shaq is unsupported by the evidence. In fact I would hypothesize that the majority of Kobe's greatest offensive performances came when he was the undisputed sole player worthy of "attention" on the floor.

Right. I don't actually think Kobe's numbers were a product of Shaq. I was just doing the same stupid thing you do by exaggerating some nearly irrelevant factor to imply that something other then just how good the player is significantly explains a statistic or difference in statistics.

By the way, so if you really think Kobe's numbers had nothing to do with Shaq, then I'm assuming that you agree that Kobe's overall numbers for his career and for each season don't really change much if he never played with Shaq correct?
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Old 03-18-2013, 04:28 PM   #123
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
I'm not going to bother looking up everyone's DRTG cause I've done this before with you. And I remember that the difference of the average DRTG of the teams Jordan faced in his 6 title runs vs teams Kobe faced in his 5 title runs was like 2-3, meaning like a 2-3% difference, meaning if Kobe's opponents had a 100 DRTG and Jordan's were a 103 DRTG, then Kobe's opponents allowed 1 point per possession, while Jordan's allowed 1.03 points per possession. Sure, overall stats should be very slightly down as a result of that, but that's for teams as a whole, not individuals, which means individual statistic differences as a whole would be virtually non-existant, and not explain why one player had considerably better stats then someone who's apparently his equal or better. Bringing up that small of a difference in DRTG is just as dumb as taking two players with close to equal stats and making a big deal out of 1 of them shooting 45.5 FG% and the other shooting 46.0 FG%.

Those differences in defensive rating are no less significant than these differences that you appear to believe make the runs incomparable

1.7 PPG/ -0.9 RPG/ 2.3 APG 4 TS%
5.1 PPG/-1.1 RPG/ -0.3 APG 1 TS%
5.7 PPG/ -0.6 RPG/ -0.1 APG -1 TS%
0.9 PPG/ 2.4 RPG/ -0.5 APG -2 TS%


Quote:
Bringing up the DRTG doesn't really offer that much valuable context, as the difference is almost always nearly irrelevant. On the other hand saying dumb shit like Kobe in the three-peat had less help then Lebron in his title run by pointing out he was playing with one all-star while Lebron was playing with two all-stars, basically implying that all all-stars are at the same level by not pointing out that the one Kobe was playing with actually won MVP 1 year, was top 3 in MVP voting and all-nba first team all 3 years while Lebron's two all-stare teammates didn't come close to any of that, is completely ignorant of context.


Of course defense matters when considering offensive numbers. That's a silly statement. If it didn't matter why was Lebron so bad against the Spurs in the Finals. Why was Jordan so inefficient against the Heat and Knicks in the playoffs?

I never claimed Kobe's 3 peat had less help than Lebron's 1 peat. I said on average including all 5 of his titles he had less help. I don't expect people on this board to have a reasonable valuation of what Shaq was "worth". I don't think its insulting to figure Shaq is worth about the 2nd best SG in the league and a perennial all star big man. But as Larry Bird fans will tell you Shaq is worth 5+ HOFers in some people minds.

Quote:
Right. I don't actually think Kobe's numbers were a product of Shaq. I was just doing the same stupid thing you do by exaggerating some nearly irrelevant factor to imply that something other then just how good the player is significantly explains a statistic or difference in statistics.

By the way, so if you really think Kobe's numbers had nothing to do with Shaq, then I'm assuming that you agree that Kobe's overall numbers for his career and for each season don't really change much if he never played with Shaq correct?

If Kobe is on those same Lakers and Shaq if off the team it would make sense that even more of the scoring load would be on Kobe.
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Old 03-18-2013, 05:12 PM   #124
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Those differences in defensive rating are no less significant than these differences that you appear to believe make the runs incomparable

1.7 PPG/ -0.9 RPG/ 2.3 APG 4 TS%
5.1 PPG/-1.1 RPG/ -0.3 APG 1 TS%
5.7 PPG/ -0.6 RPG/ -0.1 APG -1 TS%
0.9 PPG/ 2.4 RPG/ -0.5 APG -2 TS%

I don't really see how a 2-3% difference in DRTG explains and is comparable to up to a 20% difference in PPG, 33% difference in RPG, 38% difference in APG.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Of course defense matters when considering offensive numbers. That's a silly statement. If it didn't matter why was Lebron so bad against the Spurs in the Finals. Why was Jordan so inefficient against the Heat and Knicks in the playoffs?

I never said defense didn't matter. I said that the difference in DRTG that they've faced is not significant enough that it even deserves mentioning, especially when using it as an excuse to explain Kobe's lower overall statistics.
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:01 PM   #125
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuniva_dAMiGhTy
Well, it also shows that whether or not Shaq was on his team, Kobe was gonna put up 20+ shots a season. So Shaq wasn't taking shots away from him. If anything, having him on his team really helped, because the defense would often collapse on Shaq (giving more and better looks to the other Lakers).

I don't really buy that all of the "Kobe's stats would have been better if Shaq wasn't on the team" stuff. He would have scored more, but probably less efficiently. That's about it.

This

And Kobe Tards Complain Why There are Kobe Haters Around? The Dude Sounds Like He Regrets His Numbers While Playing With Shaq. The Dude Would Have Shot below 43% FG If It Wasn´t for the Lakers Teams Open Looks and Easier Ball Movement after Shaq was Doubled and Tripled.

He Wishes He Had Jordan´s Numbers Becaus He Would Like the Gap Between Him and the GOAT To Closen. Sadly and Rightly So, He is Not Close to MJ he Might Not Even Be Better than Jerry West (Just Look at West´s Numbers and FG% in a Time of Higher Pace).

Also Number 24? What is That? Did He Want tp Be Seen as an Evolution to MJ? He Was The Total Opposite a Less Athletic and Less Dominant Version of MJ.

Last edited by Round Mound : 03-18-2013 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:18 PM   #126
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by guy
I don't really see how a 2-3% difference in DRTG explains and is comparable to up to a 20% difference in PPG, 33% difference in RPG, 38% difference in APG.




I never said defense didn't matter. I said that the difference in DRTG that they've faced is not significant enough that it even deserves mentioning, especially when using it as an excuse to explain Kobe's lower overall statistics.

The net changes of your cherry picked seasons are

3.3 more ppg , 0.05 less rpg, 0.35 more apg, and 0.5 higher TS%

You would be hard pressed to find more similar playoff runs among any other players in history.

If you can't compare those runs with Kobe's then you cant compare any playoff runs period.


Last edited by Yao Ming's Foot : 03-18-2013 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:15 PM   #127
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
The net changes of your cherry picked seasons are

3.3 more ppg , 0.05 less rpg, 0.35 more apg, and 0.5 higher TS%

You would be hard pressed to find more similar playoff runs among any other players in history.

If you can't compare those runs with Kobe's then you cant compare any playoff runs period.


You can compare them and every time come to the conclusion that Kobe's wasnt as good. It's similar, just not on the same level I.E. not as good. There probably aren't any playoff runs from other perimeter players that are on that level. It's not really an odd thing to say when they're probably the greatest playoff runs from a perimeter player in general.

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Old 03-18-2013, 11:05 PM   #128
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

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Originally Posted by guy
You can compare them and every time come to the conclusion that Kobe's wasnt as good. It's similar, just not on the same level I.E. not as good. There probably aren't any playoff runs from other perimeter players that are on that level. It's not really an odd thing to say when they're probably the greatest playoff runs from a perimeter player in general.


They are roughly 3 pts a game not as good against much better defenses and yet it is casually dismissed because GASP his teammates that season were at best on par with other legendary players.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:25 PM   #129
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
They are roughly 3 pts a game not as good against much better defenses and yet it is casually dismissed because GASP his teammates that season were at best on par with other legendary players.

I dont really get where you're getting 3 pts a game from. What I see is one scenario with 2 more points, 2 more assists and considerably better efficiency, another with about 5 more points, and another with about 6 more points, and another that was just clearly better all around. As has been pointed out, there's nothing behind your claim that suggests he played much better defenses, especially to explain that gap.

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Old 03-18-2013, 11:46 PM   #130
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

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Originally Posted by guy
I dont really get where you're getting 3 pts a game from. What I see is one scenario with 2 more points, 2 more assists and considerably better efficiency, another with about 5 more points, and another with about 6 more points, and another that was just clearly better all around. As has been pointed out, there's nothing behind your claim that suggests he played much better defenses, especially to explain that gap.


Kobe's "sidekick" performance

29.4 PPG/ 7.3 REB/ 6.1 APG /56 TS%

Jordan's incomparable performances averaged together

32.75 PPG/ 7.25 RPG/ 6.45 APG/ 57.5 TS%

What do you mean there is nothing to the claim he played better defenses? Of course Kobe did. He faced more sub 100 rated defenses that playoff run than Jordan did in his entire career in the playoffs.

Jordan's line against sub 100 rated Ds in the playoffs btw





Nope no impact. Nothing to see here folks. Keep it moving.


Last edited by Yao Ming's Foot : 03-18-2013 at 11:59 PM.
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:31 AM   #131
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

I think the real question is, how much stock can we put in the DRT of teams who's defensive game plan was focused on Shaq.

Sorry, theres that context thing again, we all know YMF hates it unless it is cherry picked to suit his DRT agenda.
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:39 AM   #132
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

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Originally Posted by Leviathon1121
I think the real question is, how much stock can we put in the DRT of teams who's defensive game plan was focused on Shaq.

Sorry, theres that context thing again, we all know YMF hates it unless it is cherry picked to suit his DRT agenda.

I love context. I am amused by unsupported myths. Guess which one your post falls under.
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Old 03-19-2013, 01:23 AM   #133
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Kobe's "sidekick" performance

29.4 PPG/ 7.3 REB/ 6.1 APG /56 TS%

Jordan's incomparable performances averaged together

32.75 PPG/ 7.25 RPG/ 6.45 APG/ 57.5 TS%

What do you mean there is nothing to the claim he played better defenses? Of course Kobe did. He faced more sub 100 rated defenses that playoff run than Jordan did in his entire career in the playoffs.

Jordan's line against sub 100 rated Ds in the playoffs btw





Nope no impact. Nothing to see here folks. Keep it moving.





a very well knowledged Laker fan.
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:41 AM   #134
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Kobe's "sidekick" performance

29.4 PPG/ 7.3 REB/ 6.1 APG /56 TS%

Jordan's incomparable performances averaged together

32.75 PPG/ 7.25 RPG/ 6.45 APG/ 57.5 TS%

What do you mean there is nothing to the claim he played better defenses? Of course Kobe did. He faced more sub 100 rated defenses that playoff run than Jordan did in his entire career in the playoffs.

Jordan's line against sub 100 rated Ds in the playoffs btw





Nope no impact. Nothing to see here folks. Keep it moving.


You're stacking up three runs against one. How is that remotely comparable? The fact that he still falls short despite the smaller size illustrates my point. That's no different then comparing a whole series to one game, a whole playoff run to one series, a whole season to one month

As I've said countless times now, even if DRTG is the end all be all that determines the quality of defense, we are literally talking about in a 2-3% difference overall throughout their career, which is not "much" better. But we are supposed to hold alot of weight in it when the statistical difference between the two is significantly bigger then 2-3% overall in multiple categories. Mathematically it doesn't make much sense
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:51 AM   #135
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

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Originally Posted by guy
You're stacking up three runs against one. How is that remotely comparable? The fact that he still falls short despite the smaller size illustrates my point. That's no different then comparing a whole series to one game, a whole playoff run to one series, a whole season to one month

As I've said countless times now, even if DRTG is the end all be all that determines the quality of defense, we are literally talking about in a 2-3% difference overall throughout their career, which is not "much" better. But we are supposed to hold alot of weight in it when the statistical difference between the two is significantly bigger then 2-3% overall in multiple categories. Mathematically it doesn't make much sense



Those are the 4 playoff runs you specifically chose that represent superior performance than Kobe's 01 run. If Kobe's run is extremely similar to their average it makes no sense to consider it on a different level. It fits right in with the other 4 that you chose.

You are just inventing numbers at this point with no rhyme or reason. Who said anything about their careers? I'm talking about these specific playoff runs. A 5% difference (another bizarre calculation based on nothing) is roughly the different between the best D in the league in a given year and an average one. If you want to believe that its just as easy/impressive to put up great numbers against the best D in the league and an average one it wouldn't be the only absurd belief your delusion clings to but it would be one of the dumbest.
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