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Old 03-17-2013, 11:31 AM   #91
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

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Originally Posted by cotdt
Kobe started off the bench and that really hurt his stats. He has had to earn his way through. The only modern day equivalent would be James Harden. Now all the best players are from #1 pick, they get teams built around them from the onset and are crowned the franchise player before they even play a game.
Well, that's how it has always been. When you're a #1 pick, you're going to a bad team that obviously needs a good player at that position. Obviously you're going to be a starter. If LeBron James somehow got drafted by the celtics he wouldn't have been a starter either.
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:39 AM   #92
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

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Originally Posted by NumberSix
Well, that's how it has always been. When you're a #1 pick, you're going to a bad team that obviously needs a good player at that position. Obviously you're going to be a starter. If LeBron James somehow got drafted by the celtics he wouldn't have been a starter either.

Those people who are the #1 pick get spoiled because they start out as the top dog. Look at how humble James Harden is, compared to someone like Allen Iverson who refuses to come off the bench even though he is washed up.
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:16 PM   #93
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

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Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
All star/ hall of fame voters

What about MVPs? all-NBA first team? Let me guess, no need for you to dig deeper and differentiate, because equating MVPs and all-NBA first team honors with just being all-star and HOFer doesn't fit your agenda?

And do you even factor in that Bosh missed almost half the playoffs and Wade was playing hurt for much of the playoffs? Because you know, that context isn't reflected by your stupid criteria.

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Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Defensive rating of opponents
Win loss record of opponents


I'm not even going to bother looking, because if thats the only way to assess their opponents, then we would never see a team with a better record lose in the playoffs to teams with worse records.

Either way, I'm not even disagreeing with you that Kobe faced better opponents in the first three-peat. But only a biased idiot like yourself would think that the difference is that big to explain the difference in performance and insinuate that Kobe had an incredibly tougher time, especially when Kobe had Shaq taking so much attention away from him and actually being the more dominant player.
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:28 PM   #94
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

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Originally Posted by guy
What about MVPs? all-NBA first team? Let me guess, no need for you to dig deeper and differentiate, because equating MVPs and all-NBA first team honors with just being all-star and HOFer doesn't fit your agenda?

And do you even factor in that Bosh missed almost half the playoffs and Wade was playing hurt for much of the playoffs? Because you know, that context isn't reflected by your stupid criteria.



I'm not even going to bother looking, because if thats the only way to assess their opponents, then we would never see a team with a better record lose in the playoffs to teams with worse records.

Either way, I'm not even disagreeing with you that Kobe faced better opponents in the first three-peat. But only a biased idiot like yourself would think that the difference is that big to explain the difference in performance and insinuate that Kobe had an incredibly tougher time, especially when Kobe had Shaq taking so much attention away from him and actually being the more dominant player.

Stop arguing against what you imagine I think and allude to and instead focus on the words that I actually post.

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Old 03-17-2013, 07:47 PM   #95
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

As far as the topic goes, there's absolutely no reason to think Kobe would be on par statistically with Jordan and Lebron if he wasn't playing with Shaq. Compare them when they are in similar situations and you would see that.

Best 3 seasons where they had to carry a shitty team (since it was only 3 for Kobe):

Jordan 87-89: 34.9 ppg/6.2 rpg/6.2 apg/3.0 spg/1.3 bpg/51.6 FG%/59.1 TS%
Kobe 05-07: 31.8 ppg/5.6 rpg/5.3 apg/1.5 spg/0.5 bpg/45.0 FG%/56.7 TS%
Lebron 08-10: 29.4 ppg/7.6 rpg/7.7 apg/1.7 spg/1.1 bpg/49.2 FG%/58.7 TS%

Best 3 seasons where they were leading a title contending team (since its only been 3 for Lebron)

Jordan 90-92: 31.7 ppg/6.4 rpg/6.0 apg/2.6 spg/0.9 bpg/52.8 FG%/59.7 TS%
Kobe 08-10: 27.4 ppg/5.6 rpg/5.1 apg/1.6 spg/0.4 bpg/46.1 FG%/56.1 TS%
Lebron 11-13: 26.8 ppg/7.8 rpg/6.8 apg/1.7 spg/0.8 bpg/53.0 FG%/60.8 TS%

So Kobe's only advantage over anyone is ppg over Lebron in both situations, which isn't significant. Jordan beats him in absolutely everything with significant advantages in scoring, efficiency, and defense, while Lebron beats him in everything but scoring, and has significant advantages in rebounding, assists, defense, and efficiency.

Now would his total stats be on par with them if he had more seasons playing on bad teams? Keep in mind that he was probably at his peak/prime around the time he was playing on bad teams, while those numbers on bad teams that Jordan and Lebron put up were probably before they were at their best. On top of that, we have to realize that out of all 3 of them, Kobe probably came into the league the least ready, which means his earlier are still probably not as impressive. And on top of that, we have to realize that Kobe's efficiency stats are probably even lower with worse teams, and his assists maybe lower as well (really, the only stat that would more then likely be positively affected by being on worst teams is ppg, while everything else is unchanged or lower).

Taking all that into account really, his stats from 97-04 without Shaq and on a bad team is probably not that different from Iverson's, who was 27.0 ppg/4.1 rpg/5.7 apg/2.4 spg/0.2 bpg/41.7 FG%/50.5 TS%. I'd probably just say maybe +1.0 rpg/ -0.5 apg/ -1.0 spg/+0.4 bpg/+3.0 FG%/+4.0 TS%.

Last edited by guy : 03-17-2013 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:49 PM   #96
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Stop arguing against what you imagine I think and allude to and instead focus on the words that I actually post.


Umm, did you not point to all-star appearances as a basis for Lebron having a stronger team, while not mentioning MVPs or All-NBA 1st team honors?
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Old 03-17-2013, 08:11 PM   #97
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

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Originally Posted by guy
Umm, did you not point to all-star appearances as a basis for Lebron having a stronger team, while not mentioning MVPs or All-NBA 1st team honors?

Kobe won 4 titles without a MVP teammate. He won two without a All-NBA 1st team teammate. I have no idea what you imagine the bias you have uncovered by making that distinction.
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Old 03-17-2013, 08:33 PM   #98
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Kobe won 4 titles without a MVP teammate. He won two without a All-NBA 1st team teammate. I have no idea what you imagine the bias you have uncovered by making that distinction.

The comparison I made was Lebron's title run to Kobe's 3-peat. I wasn't arguing Kobe's other two title runs. I said Lebron's title run was "probably" more impressive then those two, but I wasn't going to bother arguing that if you disagree. I did say Lebron's title run was "clearly" more impressive then any of Kobe's first 3 and then you typically list a bunch of shit like all-star appearances without any context such as a differentiation between these all-stars.

Last edited by guy : 03-17-2013 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 03-17-2013, 08:46 PM   #99
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

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Originally Posted by guy
The comparison I made was Lebron's title run to Kobe's 3-peat. I wasn't arguing Kobe's other two title runs. I said Lebron's title run was "probably" more impressive then those two, but I wasn't going to bother arguing that if you disagree. I did say Lebron's title run was "clearly" more impressive then any of Kobe's first 3 and then you typically list a bunch of shit like all-star appearances without any context such as a differentiation between these all-stars.

When you write that you probably believe something I wasn't aware that I was supposed to ignore it because you did not want to support your statement with facts.

My post had to do with Kobe's 5 titles in general. On average Kobe has faced tougher defenses, beat better teams and had less help than Lebron James.
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Old 03-17-2013, 08:50 PM   #100
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
When you write that you probably believe something I wasn't aware that I was supposed to ignore it because you did not want to support your statement with facts.

My post had to do with Kobe's 5 titles in general. On average Kobe has faced tougher defenses, beat better teams and had less help than Lebron James.
Bronze has faced five .500 or less teams in the playoffs. People act like that's impressive when it comes to stats and completely ignore context.
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Old 03-17-2013, 08:58 PM   #101
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

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Originally Posted by ripthekik
because he wasn't given the minutes and green light to shoot in his first day in the league, unlike someone else. Kobe earned, someone else given.

one of the most epic comments I have ever read. bravo.
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Old 03-17-2013, 09:03 PM   #102
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

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Originally Posted by The Iron Fist
Bronze has faced five .500 or less teams in the playoffs. People act like that's impressive when it comes to stats and completely ignore context.

Its pretty likely that Kobe's 1st round opponents from 08-10 will have a better record than the team the Heat face in the Eastern Conference Finals this year.
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Old 03-17-2013, 09:07 PM   #103
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
When you write that you probably believe something I wasn't aware that I was supposed to ignore it because you did not want to support your statement with facts.

My post had to do with Kobe's 5 titles in general. On average Kobe has faced tougher defenses, beat better teams and had less help than Lebron James.

I wasn't going to bother arguing with you over his last 2 titles if you already believe Kobe was more impressive and had a tougher time in his first 3 titles. There's no point of arguing against your less idiotic view, when you have a separate view thats incredibly more stupid.

You do realize none of your opinions are backed up by facts right? Its not a fact that Kobe faced tougher defenses, beat better teams, and had less help then Lebron? They're opinions that may have some numbers behind it, but those numbers don't measure context, which means they don't turn an opinion into a fact.
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Old 03-17-2013, 09:08 PM   #104
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

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Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
On average Kobe has faced tougher defenses, beat better teams and had less help than Lebron James.

Are you referring to just finals series here?
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Old 03-17-2013, 09:11 PM   #105
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

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Are you referring to just finals series here?

Path to the championship
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