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Old 03-16-2013, 06:59 PM   #76
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

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Originally Posted by KingBeasley08
Why should being the best be ignored? I think its an important to note who the best player is on every championship team

Because it ignores the 10 other teammates. It's not a 2 vs 2 sport. Put Kobe on the Kings or Blazers during the 3 peat and his path to the championship is easier no matter if he would now be the team's best player.

Last edited by Yao Ming's Foot : 03-16-2013 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 03-16-2013, 07:21 PM   #77
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

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Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Not based on strength of teammates
Not based on strength of defenses faced
Not based on strength of opponents faced

And thats according to who? Your delusional biased self?
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Old 03-16-2013, 07:25 PM   #78
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

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And thats according to who? Your delusional biased self?

All star/ hall of fame voters
Defensive rating of opponents
Win loss record of opponents

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Old 03-17-2013, 10:22 AM   #79
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

And Mike's (statistical output) would be higher if he didn't play w/ Pippen. LBJ's would be higher the last 2 years if he didn't play w/ Wade.

Magic and Bird's would be higher if they didn't play w/ great players. Same is true of everyone, so that point isn't really relevant.
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Old 03-17-2013, 10:34 AM   #80
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calabis
No Kobe they didn't play with a dominant force which is why they didn't have instant success at the beginning of their careers as far as team wins(3 of your chips are because of Shaq) and you coming into a playoff team. And no Kobe, you would have not matched their numbers in your first two to three seasons....if that's the case you would have been more dominant early on and not sitting behind Eddie Jones.


Exactly. Funny how Kobe talks about numbers, yet fails to mention he took MORE shots than Shaq.

2000-01, FGA: Kobe-22.2, Shaq-19.2
2001-02, FGA: Kobe-20, Shaq-18.3
2002-03, FGA: Kobe-23.5, Shaq-18.1
2003-04, FGA: Kobe-18.1, Shaq-14.1

Bean was a second option in '99, and '99-00. In '98, he was more like a third or fourth option, and in '96-97, Kobe was more like a seventh option. There's a reason for that. He wasn't that great coming out of highschool AND had to earn the right to lead the way offensively.
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Old 03-17-2013, 10:41 AM   #81
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuniva_dAMiGhTy
Exactly. Funny how Kobe talks about numbers, yet fails to mention he took MORE shots than Shaq.

2000-01, FGA: Kobe-22.2, Shaq-19.2
2001-02, FGA: Kobe-20, Shaq-18.3
2002-03, FGA: Kobe-23.5, Shaq-18.1
2003-04, FGA: Kobe-18.1, Shaq-14.1

Bean was a second option in '99, and '99-00. In '98, he was more like a third or fourth option, and in '96-97, Kobe was more like a seventh option. There's a reason for that. He wasn't that great coming out of highschool AND had to earn the right to lead the way offensively.
because he wasn't given the minutes and green light to shoot in his first day in the league, unlike someone else. Kobe earned, someone else given.
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Old 03-17-2013, 10:52 AM   #82
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuniva_dAMiGhTy
And Mike's (statistical output) would be higher if he didn't play w/ Pippen. LBJ's would be higher the last 2 years if he didn't play w/ Wade.

Magic and Bird's would be higher if they didn't play w/ great players. Same is true of everyone, so that point isn't really relevant.

I think his point was that he spent all but a couple years of his career surrounded by great players. Jordan spent almost half his career on bad to mediocre teams which possibly inflated his stats a bit.

There's really two ways to look at here, in terms of success and in terms of numbers. Great teammates have an affect on both. Kobe's numbers probably stand to improve more than Jordan's or Lebron's if the supporting casts were equalized.
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Old 03-17-2013, 10:52 AM   #83
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuniva_dAMiGhTy
Exactly. Funny how Kobe talks about numbers, yet fails to mention he took MORE shots than Shaq.

2000-01, FGA: Kobe-22.2, Shaq-19.2
2001-02, FGA: Kobe-20, Shaq-18.3
2002-03, FGA: Kobe-23.5, Shaq-18.1
2003-04, FGA: Kobe-18.1, Shaq-14.1

Bean was a second option in '99, and '99-00. In '98, he was more like a third or fourth option, and in '96-97, Kobe was more like a seventh option. There's a reason for that. He wasn't that great coming out of highschool AND had to earn the right to lead the way offensively.

You don't think usage % would be the much more logical statistic to look at for the point you are trying to make?

Shaq getting hacked doesn't show up as a shot attempt in a box score but it certainly impacts his teammates raw scoring totals.
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Old 03-17-2013, 10:55 AM   #84
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
There's really two ways to look at here, in terms of success and in terms of numbers. Great teammates have an affect on both. Kobe's numbers would probably stand to improve more than Jordan's or Lebron's if the supporting casts were equalized.

Well, it also shows that whether or not Shaq was on his team, Kobe was gonna put up 20+ shots a season. So Shaq wasn't taking shots away from him. If anything, having him on his team really helped, because the defense would often collapse on Shaq (giving more and better looks to the other Lakers).

I don't really buy that all of the "Kobe's stats would have been better if Shaq wasn't on the team" stuff. He would have scored more, but probably less efficiently. That's about it.
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:00 AM   #85
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuniva_dAMiGhTy
I don't really buy that all of the "Kobe's stats would have been better if Shaq wasn't on the team" stuff. He would have scored more, but probably less efficiently. That's about it.

I think you're correct in thinking that his ppg would go up while his efficiency would go down. His rebounds might also go up a bit.

The biggest difference would be that he probably would have had to carry a bigger offensive load in the late 90's. Without Shaq there to run the offense through, the shots would have to be distributed more evenly, and Kobe would probably be one of the players most affected by that.
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:02 AM   #86
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
I think his point was that he spent all but a couple years of his career surrounded by great players. Jordan spent almost half his career on bad to mediocre teams which possibly inflated his stats a bit.

There's really two ways to look at here, in terms of success and in terms of numbers. Great teammates have an affect on both. Kobe's numbers probably stand to improve more than Jordan's or Lebron's if the supporting casts were equalized.
Context matters. If Kobe spent like 8 seasons on a non-contender he could have put up 5 or 6 35+ PPG seasons.

If MJ came into the league playing with an already established superstar dominant center, his scoring numbers would be drastically decreased.

You could also say though, that although MJs numbers would be lower, he might have started winning championships earlier.

This is why it's stupid to judge players with blanket criteria. Every player has completely different circumstances.
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:10 AM   #87
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by NumberSix
Context matters. If Kobe spent like 8 seasons on a non-contender he could have put up 5 or 6 35+ PPG seasons.

If MJ came into the league playing with an already established superstar dominant center, his scoring numbers would be drastically decreased.

You could also say though, that although MJs numbers would be lower, he might have started winning championships earlier.

This is why it's stupid to judge players with blanket criteria. Every player has completely different circumstances.

I don't disagree, but I was speaking strictly to the numbers side of things.
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:15 AM   #88
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Kobe started off the bench and that really hurt his stats. He has had to earn his way through. The only modern day equivalent would be James Harden. Now all the best players are from #1 pick, they get teams built around them from the onset and are crowned the franchise player before they even play a game.
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:25 AM   #89
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levity
"It does bother me that during your career, everyone says, 'Win championships.' Now, at the end of your career, they want to look at [individual] numbers. That drives me crazy a little."

great quote.

Agreed.
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:27 AM   #90
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Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

I think Kobe doesn't care about stats and it annoys him that other people do. I find myself in the same position quite often
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