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Old 03-15-2013, 06:06 PM   #61
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

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Originally Posted by Round Mound
Pippen was an All Star in 1990 and Grant Was Among the Best Defensive PFs in the Game. Both Where Better than ANY OTHER PLAYER in Barkley´s Sixers and Still Barkley´S Sixers Had Just 2 or 3 Wins Less than the Bulls.


Pippen was an all-star, but as I said, a borderline all-star. This wasn't prime Pippen yet.

1990 Pippen wasn't nearly as intelligent or disciplined defensively yet, in fact, Phil Jackson credited much of the Bulls improvement in '91 to Pippen becoming a better player and a smarter defender. Pippen also wasn't as consistent yet in '90. He had a very good first half, but an inconsistent second half. Pippen's outside shot was also still a work in progress. He was becoming pretty capable, but not as reliable yet.

Grant was definitely not better than any of Barkley's teammates that year. Don't confuse '90 Grant with '92 Grant. Horace Grant wasn't yet one of the best defensive power forwards. He lacked the discipline at that point, and wasn't as strong physically. He was an athletic defender, who can run the floor, finish and hit some jump shots, but nowhere near all-star level at that point.

Jordan did an amazing job carrying the Bulls. He averaged more than twice as many points as the Bulls second leading scorer at almost 34 ppg, led them in assists at over 6 per game, did so without being overly ball-dominant and getting much of his points in the flow of the offense and while playing elite perimeter defense. He was pretty much the Bulls best player by far in almost every facet of the game by that point.

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Barkley had Most 1st Places Votes for the MVP and Lost the MVP because some Biased Voters Did Not Even Put Him in the Top 5-10 of the MVP Votes Mostly Because of His Agressive Attitude Towards the Some Part of the Media and Coaches.

I already stated this. He was robbed in this sense.
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:05 PM   #62
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

Magic averaged 17.8/10.3/10.3 over his first 4 playoff runs.
And he averaged 20.8/6.4/12.5 over his last 4 playoff runs. (leaving out 1996)

Was he a better player in his earlier career coz of averaging triple-double?
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:12 PM   #63
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Magic was better in '82 and '83 than his first 2 seasons, but not better than Kareem at the same time, and Kareem was starting to decline. No way I take pre-'87 Magic over 2009-present Lebron, much less pre-'84 Magic.



Magic was easily a better player than Kareem by 1982.


2009 LeBron is much lesser than the current LeBron. Magic 1982 and on is easily a better player.

Last edited by Whoah10115 : 03-15-2013 at 09:21 PM.
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:35 PM   #64
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
Magic was easily a better player than Kareem by 1982.

Kareem made a much bigger impact defensively, and he was still easily the Lakers best scorer. he was the one Laker who could be relied on to draw a double team, and he carried the half court offense.

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2009 LeBron is much lesser than the current LeBron. Magic 1982 and on is easily a better player.

This is really ridiculous. I think Lebron is better than ever right now, but 2009 Lebron was without question better than '82 Magic. Much better scorer and much better defender. Magic was always an even better passer, but they're closer as passers than '82 Magic is to '09 Lebron as a scorer, and defense isn't remotely close. Magic was the better rebounder, but I don't think that makes as big of a difference.

Magic didn't have the post game yet, or an outside shot which makes this an easy choice for me. An easy choice with '82 Kareem over '82 Magic, and an even easier one with '09 Lebron over '82 Magic.

Again, if this was Magic from '87 on, it'd be a good discussion.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:04 PM   #65
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

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Originally Posted by fpliii


Considering all three phases of the game, I can never hold KAJ's offense against him. His rebounding always left more to be desired (not that he was a poor rebounder, but obviously you'd expect more given his stature/pedigree), but his defense seems to have declined over his career.

Based on my data, here's how he breaks down on that end:

70 - solid
71-74 - incredible, DPOY or better status
75 - subpar (he missed some games so I'll give him a pass)
76 - same
77 - solid
78 - somewhere between subpar and solid (missed games, another pass)
79-82 - solid
83-84 again not quite subpar but not solid
85 - solid
86-89 - I won't hold these seasons against him given his age

The problematic seasons IMO are 75-78. I think he should've exhibited that same level of defense from his best defensive years in MIL. Since my numbers incorporate a lot of team-level impact I can't say anything definitively regarding 75 and 78 since the games he missed might've affected the results, but I really would've liked to see him play defense at that same level for those four seasons. On another note, it would've been fun for him to have retired in 85 given the crazy Finals series he had, but it's hard to step away from the game at the perfect moment (only really Russell, and perhaps David Robinson did, off the top of my head; MJ would be in that category as well, if not for those last two Washington seasons).



People love to give credit for defense to the big guy...I wonder why a guy who plays average (at best) defense doesn't get more criticism. Kareem gets a pass for way too much.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:21 PM   #66
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
2009 LeBron is much lesser than the current LeBron. Magic 1982 and on is easily a better player.

No way 82' Magic was a better player than 2009 Lebron. You and I see things very differently.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:23 PM   #67
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

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Originally Posted by DatAsh
I don't think Jordan deserved the 1988 MVP(Bird did), but I'm not so sure those two situations you listed are all that comparable.

1988 Jordan was a better player than 2007 Lebron. That had a lot to do with the disparity in MVP votes.

This reply and others like it comparing Lebron and Jordan are irrelevant. The point was that the MVP voting of the times differed, where the best player in Lebron's era wasn't given the MVP due to the fact that they thought his team record held him back - whereas for Jordan he was given it, regardless of this fact. So the people saying that Jordan would have won even more in Lebron's time fail to appreciate that even regardless of the numbers he would put up (and Lebron did put up) that wouldn't guarantee him an MVP award.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:25 PM   #68
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Kareem made a much bigger impact defensively, and he was still easily the Lakers best scorer. he was the one Laker who could be relied on to draw a double team, and he carried the half court offense.



Kareem made a big impact defensively and it was a lot more negative than you claim. Big men get so much credit for defense and don't get enough criticism when their defense is distinctly average, mediocre, or barely above average. His defense was better in the playoffs and his BPG went up but he was solid, at best. I think I'm actually being a little kind. Magic's defense is much better than people give credit for. He wasn't usually guarding tiny PG's who would run around him all day. His team defense was very good and he forced a lot of turnovers, including getting a bunch of steals.


The team went thru Magic. Nixon may have been the PG in the halfcourt but Magic created transition even back then and he was more a PG for that team than anyone. Magic outrebounded Kareem, completely. Kareem isn't Marc Gasol. He's not doing a bunch of boxing out and setting up teammates for rebounds. That said, even Gasol has to improve his rebounding...tho his wings don't rebound as much as he does. Magic had more RPG, more rebounds per minute, a higher rebounding percentage, more ORPG, more offensive rebounds per minute and even a higher offensive rebounding percentage. He played 1-3 and lived on the perimeter. He also outrebounded him in the playoffs.


Watching old playoff games, it was clear who the best player was. Magic was better and it was his team. Thru the playoffs and in the Finals. Really, outside of scoring, the only argument for Kareem was that he was taller.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
This is really ridiculous. I think Lebron is better than ever right now, but 2009 Lebron was without question better than '82 Magic. Much better scorer and much better defender. Magic was always an even better passer, but they're closer as passers than '82 Magic is to '09 Lebron as a scorer, and defense isn't remotely close. Magic was the better rebounder, but I don't think that makes as big of a difference.

Magic didn't have the post game yet, or an outside shot which makes this an easy choice for me. An easy choice with '82 Kareem over '82 Magic, and an even easier one with '09 Lebron over '82 Magic.

Again, if this was Magic from '87 on, it'd be a good discussion.



Absolutely not. I have enough respect for you to know I'm not going to change your opinion, just as you know you aren't going to change mine. But I know that I'm right on this one. Fact is that if the difference in a series is 82 Magic and 09 LeBron then I'm going to beat you because I took Magic. Absolutely. In fact, I might beat you badly.


If it was Magic from 87 on I'd kill you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
No way 82' Magic was a better player than 2009 Lebron. You and I see things very differently.


Well, I'm not gonna fail to respect anyone's opinion. But my point stands clear and that is that 82 Magic will take his team further than 09 LeBron. Regardless, I respect your opinion.

Last edited by Whoah10115 : 03-15-2013 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:31 PM   #69
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

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Originally Posted by LeBird
This reply and others like it comparing Lebron and Jordan are irrelevant. The point was that the MVP voting of the times differed, where the best player in Lebron's era wasn't given the MVP due to the fact that they thought his team record held him back - whereas for Jordan he was given it, regardless of this fact. So the people saying that Jordan would have won even more in Lebron's time fail to appreciate that even regardless of the numbers he would put up (and Lebron did put up) that wouldn't guarantee him an MVP award.


LeBron has no argument for MVP in 2007 tho so I don't see what you're arguing. He didn't even make the First Team (which I actually think he should have made).


His team won 50 games. Kobe's team won 42 and he two spots below Kobe and 338 points behind him in MVP voting. By contrast, LeBron was 2nd in the MVP voting (for whatever reason) the year before. His team's record the year before? The same as the year you're talking about. Dirk finished in 3rd (Dirk was better) and his team had 60 wins.

LeBron's record had nothing to do with it.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:34 PM   #70
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
This reply and others like it comparing Lebron and Jordan are irrelevant. The point was that the MVP voting of the times differed, where the best player in Lebron's era wasn't given the MVP due to the fact that they thought his team record held him back - whereas for Jordan he was given it, regardless of this fact. So the people saying that Jordan would have won even more in Lebron's time fail to appreciate that even regardless of the numbers he would put up (and Lebron did put up) that wouldn't guarantee him an MVP award.

You bring up some good points here.

Part of what bugs me about the MVP is the inconsistent criteria. They should really be trying to give it to the best player, that is the most valuable player in a general sense. 1988 Jordan and 2007 Lebron weren't the best players in the league.

Last edited by DatAsh : 03-15-2013 at 10:37 PM.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:36 PM   #71
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
People love to give credit for defense to the big guy...I wonder why a guy who plays average (at best) defense doesn't get more criticism. Kareem gets a pass for way too much.

Good point. Not a knock on Kareem specifically, but if I'm building my team I don't want my center to prioritize offense. He should focus on defense and rebounding. While he was near unstoppable, I think that playing his game held Kareem back during his seasons post-Oscar and pre-Magic. Those were some bad teams, but I do think he became disenchanted after losing that seventh game in 74. Those three seasons (74-76) IMO produced the weakest champions in the shotclock era, and KAJ's teams should've dominated those seasons.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:52 PM   #72
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

Magic came in right away and gave a swagger to a team that was good but wouldn't be confused as being more than that. His game was already very well rounded. He had an intuitive game that filled whatever the team needed. Both Kareem and Wilke's shooting percentage jumped 30%. Both of their games were waaaay more relaxed than they played before. Magic took a significant proportion of the rebounds. The team now had an identity and a guy who could morph into other roles. Magic had a competitive fire that the Laker's didn't have before. His leadership was a whole notch above what it was before. Those were his Laker teams. Kareem was the better player on a couple of the earlier teams but he wasn't at the steering wheel, and his whole career was thirsty for a player like Magic to elevate it.

I've heard here that Bird was better than Magic in his first four years when Bird's playoff play was independable, bumpy, far less efficient, inconsistent, and he rarely stepped it up for any length of time ('84 plus, he was as good as it gets thou, and for like three years). But the first four years they weren't similar players (Bird was better during the year but the playoffs wasn't comparable). Magic came into the league as a complete player that couldn't shoot that well but it didn't greatly affect his game. In fact, he kept his dribble longer and rarely was forced into bad shot taking anyway.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:52 PM   #73
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

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Originally Posted by Whoah10115
LeBron has no argument for MVP in 2007 tho so I don't see what you're arguing. He didn't even make the First Team (which I actually think he should have made).

His team won 50 games. Kobe's team won 42 and he two spots below Kobe and 338 points behind him in MVP voting. By contrast, LeBron was 2nd in the MVP voting (for whatever reason) the year before. His team's record the year before? The same as the year you're talking about. Dirk finished in 3rd (Dirk was better) and his team had 60 wins.

LeBron's record had nothing to do with it.

The 2005-06 season he came 2nd in the voting. You think being on a 50 win team didn't hold him back from winning it? And you're making a mistake by comparing Kobe's 42 win and Lebron's 50 win as if it is a linear progression. Did Kobe win it that year? No. Even if you were to argue that Kobe still got higher than Lebron despite his team winning less; Kobe didn't get the MVP. Who got it? Dirk, whose team also had a 67 win season.

How about the year after? Or do you think there were no years he deserved it, or was comparable, before he actually did win it? Saying their records didn't influence it is complete nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
You bring up some good points here.

Part of what bugs me about the MVP is the inconsistent criteria. They should really be trying to give it to the best player, that is the most valuable player in a general sense. 1988 Jordan and 2007 Lebron weren't the best players in the league.

True the meaning does change from time to time. My post was in reply to someone saying that Jordan's MVPs mean more because he beat out notable ATGs (like Bird); when if you considered the kinds of seasons someone like Bird was having, and his team's dominance, then Jordan shouldn't be winning titles in those eras either if judged by the same criteria Lebron has been judged.
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:00 PM   #74
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

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Originally Posted by LeBird
The 2005-06 season he came 2nd in the voting. You think being on a 50 win team didn't hold him back from winning it? And you're making a mistake by comparing Kobe's 42 win and Lebron's 50 win as if it is a linear progression. Did Kobe win it that year? No. Even if you were to argue that Kobe still got higher than Lebron despite his team winning less; Kobe didn't get the MVP. Who got it? Dirk, whose team also had a 67 win season.

How about the year after? Or do you think there were no years he deserved it, or was comparable, before he actually did win it? Saying their records didn't influence it is complete nonsense.


First of all, you said 2007. Second, Dirk was better than LeBron that year and still finished behind him, despite winning 10 more games. The Suns had only the 3rd best record in the conference. Nash's team won 6 fewer games than Dirk's team and Nash finished almost 400 points ahead of Dirk. I think this is more a point of referencing LeBron, as Bryant was better than James that year and somehow finished behind two spots behind him.


Dirk's team in 2007 won 67 games...in the West. I think Nash should have won it that year but 67 games is a LOT of games. Josh Howard was an all-star but barely. They were 6 games ahead of Phoenix, who got back Amare and still had Marion. That's less to do with the better record winning and more to do with getting extra points for an incredible record...plus Nash had won it the two previous years and they weren't going to Larry Bird him.
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:10 PM   #75
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

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Originally Posted by Whoah10115
First of all, you said 2007. Second, Dirk was better than LeBron that year and still finished behind him, despite winning 10 more games. The Suns had only the 3rd best record in the conference. Nash's team won 6 fewer games than Dirk's team and Nash finished almost 400 points ahead of Dirk. I think this is more a point of referencing LeBron, as Bryant was better than James that year and somehow finished behind two spots behind him.

It was an example of a season where he played at an MVP level and didn't win it.

The 2007 year I am talking about where Dirk finished above Lebron was in 06-07 when he won the MVP. The year you are talking about where he finished below Lebron (he finished 11th) was the 07-08 season. Look at Dirk's numbers between the years: objectively, not much difference besides his dip in shooting. Now look at the team success: 67 win #1 team in the league vs 51 win #10 team in the league. Yet from #1 to #11 in MVP voting.

It isn't rocket science, or an exact science, but you've got your reason staring you in the face.
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