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Old 03-14-2013, 12:31 AM   #31
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gengiskhan
true

BUT

MJ was robbed the following years:

1989
1993
1997

1989: Yes I Agree because Magic had the Better Cast and the Pistons Where Stacked. Pippen was Just a Step Away (Actually a Year Away) from Being an All Star. Yes, Agree There.

1993: Barkley Deserved the MVP Again that Year because KJ ONLY Played 49 Games and the Suns Actually Had a Better Winning% Without Him. Jordan Still had a Better Cast with Pippen and Grant than Barkley with KJ Out for Most of the Season Pilled Up 62 Wins.

1997: Malone Deserved his MVP despite the Fact he Had Stockton...Because Jordan had Pippen, Rodman, Longley, Kukoc, Harper A Way Better Team. Malone Deserved the 1997 MVP..NOT the Other One in 1999 Ofcourse..

Jordan Deserved: 88, 89, 91, 92 and 96.

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Old 03-14-2013, 12:38 AM   #32
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
Nope.



Maybe. I have an obligation to put him over Barkley, even tho Barkley was a better player at his best and did so in a much better era...and he simply did more, stepped up in every big situation, but simply didn't win...and, I guess, didn't get close enough to the promised land as much as he needed to. But I'd take Barkley over most of the guys I'm supposed to put on the list.



Well yeah lol. No original thinking can leave Jordan off the list.


Looking back at his career and thinking back to all the old games I've seen...I'm trying too hard to pick, when the Logo is right there.

Just curious...where do you have the Big O and Dr. J? I'm trying to rationalize your placing KAJ at 6 (not that I have a problem with this; I don't subscribe to the idea of GOAT lists anymore, but my last list slotted Cap at 5...it's just that putting him there is a minority view).

BTW I know the typical what if regarding Bird regards his bad back, but how about his finger? In 'When the Game Was Ours', IMO there are two interesting points of contention regarding the Bird/Magic comparison (I'm going off of memory, apologies for any inaccuracies):

• Before reporting to the C's training camp, Bird was playing softball with one of his brothers, and his finger was severely damaged (I believe he noted that he'd completely lost his shooting touch thereafter, but obviously he was still extremely effective). You gotta imagine that, although he was one of the great shooters in league history, that he could've been even better in that regard.

• During the end of their college careers, the word on Bird was that he was Magic with a jumpshot (though to simulate playing against Indiana State, Magic did his best Bird impression and sank jumper after jumper, from distance, against his teammates, almost automatically...one shot was from far enough from the basket that his coach called him out of bounds).

(FWIW I had Magic as one of three potential GOAT candidates, with MJ and Russ being the other two, in my last rankings before giving up on the concept...both he and Bird were legendary players.)
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Old 03-14-2013, 01:06 AM   #33
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpliii
Just curious...where do you have the Big O and Dr. J? I'm trying to rationalize your placing KAJ at 6 (not that I have a problem with this; I don't subscribe to the idea of GOAT lists anymore, but my last list slotted Cap at 5...it's just that putting him there is a minority view).

BTW I know the typical what if regarding Bird regards his bad back, but how about his finger? In 'When the Game Was Ours', IMO there are two interesting points of contention regarding the Bird/Magic comparison (I'm going off of memory, apologies for any inaccuracies):

• Before reporting to the C's training camp, Bird was playing softball with one of his brothers, and his finger was severely damaged (I believe he noted that he'd completely lost his shooting touch thereafter, but obviously he was still extremely effective). You gotta imagine that, although he was one of the great shooters in league history, that he could've been even better in that regard.

• During the end of their college careers, the word on Bird was that he was Magic with a jumpshot (though to simulate playing against Indiana State, Magic did his best Bird impression and sank jumper after jumper, from distance, against his teammates, almost automatically...one shot was from far enough from the basket that his coach called him out of bounds).

(FWIW I had Magic as one of three potential GOAT candidates, with MJ and Russ being the other two, in my last rankings before giving up on the concept...both he and Bird were legendary players.)



I don't think I'd heard of the finger thing until reading your post. You're saying he hurt it before even playing a professional game? I can't try to imagine how much better he would have been. As far as his back goes...the guy played 12 seasons worth of basketball and he was a great player every single season. He was a top 10 player in eleven different seasons. Hard to ask for more, especially in that era.


There is a lot of recent revisionism with Kareem. I'm sure there were people talking him up 10 years ago and even earlier (as far as his GOAT candidacy) but it was never like this. Thru high school I hardly ever saw a list where he wasn't ranked below Wilt and Russell, for starters. Magic was often #2, tho I sometimes saw Wilt at #2, as his numbers were just stupid. I was surprised when I saw Bird below the other 5 on the ESPN list of greatest athletes (tho I guess they could take into consideration that Wilt and Russell were all-around athletes, and KAJ is the best college player ever). A lot of different (and random) magazines would compile their list of the greatest athletes and I often saw Michael, Magic, Larry as the top 3 basketball guys. But, regardless, it was rare that I saw Kareem ahead of either Russell or Chamberlain. And I think the somewhat recent obsession with ranking him #1 is a great example of people looking toward a list of checked-off accomplishments that justify some new movements on the list. Also, people are still looking for the Air Apparent. They'll even go back in time.



As far as Dr. J and Oscar...I'm not sure. Robertson was a perfectionist whose game was far from what perfection in basketball should be about. It's like when LeBron often tries to do everything...except that James did a better job of actually leading teammates. He also does so much in transition. Robertson played like he was in the movie Victory and had to lead a bunch of bowlegged 9year-olds in order to regain his freedom.


I'm overstating it a little, but I saw a lot of that in his game. And really, why should I take him over Isiah? I remember watching a lot of old Isiah games on ESPN Classic and he was just dirty and did everything to win. I didn't see that in Robertson's game.


Erving...he was great. I think Havlicek may or may not have been better. Charles, LeBron, Duncan, KG, Malone, Malone, Shaq, Admiral, Ewing, Wade...I think all these guys have a legitimate argument over him, along with Isiah and Robertson. I read a lot of books when I was younger. Maybe I just need to do a mini-review by season. But I'd need to actually watch old games. Or large portions of old games.
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Old 03-14-2013, 01:16 AM   #34
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
I don't think I'd heard of the finger thing until reading your post. You're saying he hurt it before even playing a professional game? I can't try to imagine how much better he would have been. As far as his back goes...the guy played 12 seasons worth of basketball and he was a great player every single season. He was a top 10 player in eleven different seasons. Hard to ask for more, especially in that era.

Correct. I was shocked as well. I can't find any one great article (again, my source was the recent Magic/Bird book), but searching for something like:

Larry Bird finger injury softball

on Google (or any other news archiver of your choice) from the summer of 79 will give you some matches.


Quote:
There is a lot of recent revisionism with Kareem. I'm sure there were people talking him up 10 years ago and even earlier (as far as his GOAT candidacy) but it was never like this. Thru high school I hardly ever saw a list where he wasn't ranked below Wilt and Russell, for starters. Magic was often #2, tho I sometimes saw Wilt at #2, as his numbers were just stupid. I was surprised when I saw Bird below the other 5 on the ESPN list of greatest athletes (tho I guess they could take into consideration that Wilt and Russell were all-around athletes, and KAJ is the best college player ever). A lot of different (and random) magazines would compile their list of the greatest athletes and I often saw Michael, Magic, Larry as the top 3 basketball guys. But, regardless, it was rare that I saw Kareem ahead of either Russell or Chamberlain. And I think the somewhat recent obsession with ranking him #1 is a great example of people looking toward a list of checked-off accomplishments that justify some new movements on the list. Also, people are still looking for the Air Apparent. They'll even go back in time.

Ah okay. One other point of note is that at the time, Walton was considered by a fair portion of sportswriters/other players to be the superior player (compared to KAJ). I definitely respect his longevity (particularly what he did in 85, absolutely ridiculous) but agree for the most part.

BTW thanks for sharing your stance on Robertson/Erving (as I said, the reason I mentioned both guys was to try and see if where you slotted them had something to do with the Kareem placement...two leading criticisms of him regard only winning with a legendary PG, and having some of his best statistical seasons in a split league).
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Old 03-14-2013, 01:21 AM   #35
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
I don't think I'd heard of the finger thing until reading your post. You're saying he hurt it before even playing a professional game? I can't try to imagine how much better he would have been. As far as his back goes...the guy played 12 seasons worth of basketball and he was a great player every single season. He was a top 10 player in eleven different seasons. Hard to ask for more, especially in that era.

Yeah Bird like shattered his finger and had surgery on it before his first training camp.

Quote:
"Bird laughs a little bit and holds up his right index finger. "This," he says. The finger is shaped much like a boomerang, permanently bent toward his thumb at a 45-degree angle. Two operations have failed to straighten it; he can bend it only halfway to his palm. "I didn't have this in college," he says. He broke it playing softball the summer before his rookie year, trying to catch a wicked line drive off the bat of his brother Mike. "Mike hit a shot that knuckled like nothing I ever seen and that sucker hit my finger and I dropped it. So I picked it up and threw to second base, only the ball tailed up and away and clear over the second baseman, and Mike went all the way over to third base laughing like anything. I had to laugh, too, because I didn't know why the ball did that until I looked down at my hand and saw my finger broken at about a 90-degree angle.""

^ http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...1981flash.html

He also allegedy broke that same finger in the 85 playoffs in a bar fight.

Last edited by ProfessorMurder : 03-14-2013 at 01:34 AM.
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Old 03-14-2013, 01:25 AM   #36
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpliii
Correct. I was shocked as well. I can't find any one great article (again, my source was the recent Magic/Bird book), but searching for something like:

Larry Bird finger injury softball

on Google (or any other news archiver of your choice) from the summer of 79 will give you some matches.




Ah okay. One other point of note is that at the time, Walton was considered by a fair portion of sportswriters/other players to be the superior player (compared to KAJ). I definitely respect his longevity (particularly what he did in 85, absolutely ridiculous) but agree for the most part.

BTW thanks for sharing your stance on Robertson/Erving (as I said, the reason I mentioned both guys was to try and see if where you slotted them had something to do with the Kareem placement...two leading criticisms of him regard only winning with a legendary PG, and having some of his best statistical seasons in a split league).


That wasn't my reason, tho I considered saying that out loud. But I don't want to knock Kareem based on that. The Kareem I saw playing in LA was one lazy man on defense. Did not defend the pick n' roll and didn't protect the rim nearly as much as his blocks suggest. Altering shots is more important than blocking a couple. He blocked a lot but I didn't see him contest as much as I would have liked, considering how lazy he was. The guy was known for his end-to-end speed and his gracefulness, but he was so lazy that I used to think he was slow (I'm talking pre-Magic).


I won't hold against him that he didn't win without a great PG. He just never had the impact of the other 5. And it was very noticeable. It makes me even think about ranking other players ahead of him, tho I struggle mostly because of the overall career...I mean, the longevity was crazy...especially when he did it.


But then I think of all the games I've seen and all that things I've read about him as a Buck...that Kareem was something else.
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Old 03-14-2013, 01:27 AM   #37
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfessorMurder
Yeah Bird like shattered his finger and had surgery on it before his first training camp.



^ http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...1981flash.html

He also broke that same finger in the 85 playoffs in a bar fight.



LOL...a bar fight.


Good stuff.
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Old 03-14-2013, 01:41 AM   #38
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
LOL...a bar fight.


Good stuff.

He was a tough SOB


When are NBA players going to learn that clubs/bars just lead to trouble? Bird in a bar fight, Pierce getting stabbed, Stephen Jackson/Kendrick Perkins shooting incident. Newsflash, you can pick up chicks anywhere guys!
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Old 03-14-2013, 01:49 AM   #39
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
That wasn't my reason, tho I considered saying that out loud. But I don't want to knock Kareem based on that. The Kareem I saw playing in LA was one lazy man on defense. Did not defend the pick n' roll and didn't protect the rim nearly as much as his blocks suggest. Altering shots is more important than blocking a couple. He blocked a lot but I didn't see him contest as much as I would have liked, considering how lazy he was. The guy was known for his end-to-end speed and his gracefulness, but he was so lazy that I used to think he was slow (I'm talking pre-Magic).


I won't hold against him that he didn't win without a great PG. He just never had the impact of the other 5. And it was very noticeable. It makes me even think about ranking other players ahead of him, tho I struggle mostly because of the overall career...I mean, the longevity was crazy...especially when he did it.


But then I think of all the games I've seen and all that things I've read about him as a Buck...that Kareem was something else.

There are some clips and full games on Kareem with the Bucks the dude was an Unreal Defender then. He was like a More Athletic Version of Tim Duncan with Better Passing and ofcourse the Most Onstoppable Post Shot of All Time, The Sky Hook. Kareem in his 20s Would Average 30-35 PPG in Today´s NBA with Ease.
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Old 03-14-2013, 01:59 AM   #40
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

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Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7
Tim Duncan ?



I think the MVP he got in 1990 proves that. Word is, that he didn't deserve it over Barkley, but the competition against him is something James never faced:



I mean, you can literally make a case just going off stats, for the Top 7 listed.


Holy **** all all those players stats that year. if any of them were playing in this years nba they would all have a case for MVP. Players in todays nba are lucky not to have amazing competition like that
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:00 AM   #41
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

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Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7



Look at those Block numbers from Superstar Centers.

I miss the 90's
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:02 AM   #42
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

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Originally Posted by B4llin
Holy **** all all those players stats that year. if any of them were playing in this years nba they would all have a case for MVP. Players in todays nba are lucky not to have amazing competition like that

Isiah Thomas 13Th in MVP race and putting up Chris Paul numbers
Larry Bird putting up Lebron numbers and 7th in MVP race.

Imagine if players in todays nba were putting up these stats?

All those 27/11 guys
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:06 AM   #43
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

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Originally Posted by Sarcastic
Jordan taking MVPs away from Bird and Magic is far more impressive than James taking MVPs away from 21 year old Durant.

Yet if Jordan played in this era, on a team that was losing even though he was beasting; he wouldn't win MVPs over Bird and Magic - as that was the reason why Lebron kept getting passed over even though he was the actual MVP.
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:09 AM   #44
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

GOAT Lakers.
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Old 03-14-2013, 07:49 AM   #45
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
Yet if Jordan played in this era, on a team that was losing even though he was beasting; he wouldn't win MVPs over Bird and Magic - as that was the reason why Lebron kept getting passed over even though he was the actual MVP.


The Cavs didn't win enough games early on for Lebron to win MVP.
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