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Old 03-05-2013, 02:08 AM   #1
Aidz
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Default History will remember OKC as stacked chokers

History will remember 2012 NBA Finals as the stacked OKC chokers vs the underdog Miami Heat Lebronites

Let's compare the two rosters.

Durant < Lebron
Westbrook = Wade
Harden >>> Bosh

Ibaka >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything else the heat had

Let's face it. Lebron lifted Miami to victory against all odds. OKC was so devastated that they ruined their chances of ever making it to the finals again by letting Harden go and refusing to amnesty Perkins.

Goodnight, OKC. You had your chance and you choked.

Bring on the Spurs.

Last edited by Aidz : 03-05-2013 at 02:11 AM.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:20 AM   #2
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Default Re: History will remember OKC as stacked chokers

nah harden choked hard just like how lebron choked during the series vs Dallas.

also Scottie Brooks was the no.1 reason why they lost
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:24 AM   #3
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Default Re: History will remember OKC as stacked chokers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidz
History will remember 2012 NBA Finals as the stacked OKC chokers vs the underdog Miami Heat Lebronites

Let's compare the two rosters.

Durant < Lebron
Westbrook = Wade
Harden >>> Bosh

Ibaka >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything else the heat had

Let's face it. Lebron lifted Miami to victory against all odds. OKC was so devastated that they ruined their chances of ever making it to the finals again by letting Harden go and refusing to amnesty Perkins.

Goodnight, OKC. You had your chance and you choked.

Bring on the Spurs.

Ban this kid, hedum.

-Smak
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:29 AM   #4
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Default Re: History will remember OKC as stacked chokers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidz
History will remember 2012 NBA Finals as the stacked OKC chokers vs the underdog Miami Heat Lebronites

Let's compare the two rosters.

Durant < Lebron
Westbrook = Wade
Harden >>> Bosh

Ibaka >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything else the heat had

Let's face it. Lebron lifted Miami to victory against all odds. OKC was so devastated that they ruined their chances of ever making it to the finals again by letting Harden go and refusing to amnesty Perkins.

Goodnight, OKC. You had your chance and you choked.

Bring on the Spurs.
Negged. Will neg again.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:30 AM   #5
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Default Re: History will remember OKC as stacked chokers

Stop bumping threads from last year oh wait
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:32 AM   #6
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Default Re: History will remember OKC as stacked chokers

22, 22, 23, 23....that's how old Ibaka, Harden, Westbrook, and Durant were during last year's Finals. But sure, why not, "stacked chokers" sounds about right.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:47 AM   #7
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Default Re: History will remember OKC as stacked chokers

They're clearly not stacked or chokers. OKC is one of the smallest markets in the league. If stacked is being smart about your draft choices and economical in signing contracts, then what do you call a team like the Lakers, who just get every big free agent that comes along and signs them to whatever deal they want?

Sure, they have a good team. Their top-4 of Durant, Westbrook, Harden, and Ibaka is hard to top, but it's hardly fair to call them "stacked." That has such a negative connotation to it. They maximized the returns from four players they got as a result of good drafting. Would Westbrook have become as good as he is without Durant there to shoulder the scoring load early in Westbrook's career? Would Harden have become as good as he is if he was thrown into an NBA starting lineup his first game as a pro? Ibaka had the benefit of literally not giving a single f*ck about offense for the first 3 years of his career.

My point is, OKC didn't get dealt a stacked hand. They got dealt good draft picks and struck gold with them (Durant 2nd, Westbrook 4th, Harden 3rd), which is harder to do than people seem to realize (see Portland, the Clippers, the Knicks, etc.) and found diamonds in the rough with later picks (Ibaka 24th, Sefolosha 13th, they even found Glen Davis at 35th overall).

As far as chokers, they had one of the most meteoric rises in NBA history.

08-09: 23-59 (22-47 with newly appointed Coach Scott Brooks) - Miss playoffs.
09-10: 50-32 - Lose to eventual champs in first round in 6 games.
10-11: 55-27 - Lose to eventual champs in Conference Finals in 5 games.
11-12: 47-19 (lockout season; record equivalent of 58-24) - Lose to eventual champs in NBA Finals.
12-13: 43-16 (so far; on pace for 59-60 games).

They've gotten better each and every year. Were they expected to win in the Finals in their first appearance, against a team with playoff and Finals veterans?

So, no, history won't remember them as chokers. They'll be remembered for improving every year like clockwork, regardless of external factors (e.g. lockout, trading their 3rd best player for spare parts, etc.). And their front office will be remembered as one of the best ever.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:56 AM   #8
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Default Re: History will remember OKC as stacked chokers

The Thunder didn't draft Sefolosha. He was drafted by the 76ers and traded to Chicago where he played through the 2009 season. OKC traded a draft pick they acquired (from the Nuggets) to Chicago for Sefolosha. The Bulls used that pick to draft Taj Gibson. They did draft Davis but he was traded to the Celtics as a part of the Ray Allen trade, and the Thunder got Jeff Green, Delonte West and Wally Szczerbiak. So Big Baby actually never played for the Sonics/Thunder.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:08 AM   #9
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Default Re: History will remember OKC as stacked chokers

Quote:
Originally Posted by KG215
The Thunder didn't draft Sefolosha. He was drafted by the 76ers and traded to Chicago where he played through the 2009 season. OKC traded a draft pick they acquired (from the Nuggets) to Chicago for Sefolosha. The Bulls used that pick to draft Taj Gibson. They did draft Davis but he was traded to the Celtics as a part of the Ray Allen trade, and the Thunder got Jeff Green, Delonte West and Wally Szczerbiak. So Big Baby actually never played for the Sonics/Thunder.

Yeah, I knew about Baby. My mention of him was to illustrate that the Thunder's front office was capable of finding gems late in the draft. Davis isn't a star, but I'd gladly take his production and defense for 35th overall.

I didn't know about Sefolosha, so thanks for clearing that up.

Still, it seems like his case is illustrative of OKC's good FO. Taj Gibson is a great rebounder and defensive big, but he can't play center and he would have been somewhat redundant on the OKC team with Ibaka there. Much better to have an elite perimeter defender who can hit the three, in the mold of Bowen. Not that they wouldn't be (much) better with Taj -- they definitely would -- it's just that the need for a Sefolosha-like player was bigger. And he's flourished in OKC, as well, or was he known as an elite defensive wing in Philly/Chicago?


Edit: In any case, I think we're on the same side of the debate ITS. They're not "stacked" in the conventional sense just because their FO did their f*cking job and was smart about building the team. It's quite miraculous how far they've come in such a short time. Tell any Sonic/Thunder fan in 07 that they'd be a top-3 favorite to win the title in 5 years and they would love that, I'm sure.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:10 AM   #10
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Default Re: History will remember OKC as stacked chokers

If Durant never wins a championship (which i highly doubt happens) he will be viewed as the Charles Barkley, much how like MJ beat Barkley in the 93 Finals, the Suns being the Thunder.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:27 AM   #11
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Default Re: History will remember OKC as stacked chokers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djahjaga
They're clearly not stacked or chokers. OKC is one of the smallest markets in the league. If stacked is being smart about your draft choices and economical in signing contracts, then what do you call a team like the Lakers, who just get every big free agent that comes along and signs them to whatever deal they want?

Sure, they have a good team. Their top-4 of Durant, Westbrook, Harden, and Ibaka is hard to top, but it's hardly fair to call them "stacked." That has such a negative connotation to it. They maximized the returns from four players they got as a result of good drafting. Would Westbrook have become as good as he is without Durant there to shoulder the scoring load early in Westbrook's career? Would Harden have become as good as he is if he was thrown into an NBA starting lineup his first game as a pro? Ibaka had the benefit of literally not giving a single f*ck about offense for the first 3 years of his career.

My point is, OKC didn't get dealt a stacked hand. They got dealt good draft picks and struck gold with them (Durant 2nd, Westbrook 4th, Harden 3rd), which is harder to do than people seem to realize (see Portland, the Clippers, the Knicks, etc.) and found diamonds in the rough with later picks (Ibaka 24th, Sefolosha 13th, they even found Glen Davis at 35th overall).

As far as chokers, they had one of the most meteoric rises in NBA history.

08-09: 23-59 (22-47 with newly appointed Coach Scott Brooks) - Miss playoffs.
09-10: 50-32 - Lose to eventual champs in first round in 6 games.
10-11: 55-27 - Lose to eventual champs in Conference Finals in 5 games.
11-12: 47-19 (lockout season; record equivalent of 58-24) - Lose to eventual champs in NBA Finals.
12-13: 43-16 (so far; on pace for 59-60 games).

They've gotten better each and every year. Were they expected to win in the Finals in their first appearance, against a team with playoff and Finals veterans?

So, no, history won't remember them as chokers. They'll be remembered for improving every year like clockwork, regardless of external factors (e.g. lockout, trading their 3rd best player for spare parts, etc.). And their front office will be remembered as one of the best ever.

Great post, but this is only a troll thread. It's not worth the effort.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:39 AM   #12
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Default Re: History will remember OKC as stacked chokers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djahjaga
Yeah, I knew about Baby. My mention of him was to illustrate that the Thunder's front office was capable of finding gems late in the draft. Davis isn't a star, but I'd gladly take his production and defense for 35th overall.
Yeah, and in hindsight having someone like Glen Davis coming off the bench would be nice. It'd be hard to play a frontcourt of him and Collison together, but a frontcourt of stretches where he's on the floor with the starters at PF and Ibaka at C would definitely be intriguing.

Quote:
I didn't know about Sefolosha, so thanks for clearing that up.

Still, it seems like his case is illustrative of OKC's good FO. Taj Gibson is a great rebounder and defensive big, but he can't play center and he would have been somewhat redundant on the OKC team with Ibaka there. Much better to have an elite perimeter defender who can hit the three, in the mold of Bowen. Not that they wouldn't be (much) better with Taj -- they definitely would -- it's just that the need for a Sefolosha-like player was bigger. And he's flourished in OKC, as well, or was he known as an elite defensive wing in Philly/Chicago?
I agree, but I'm not sure they'd be better with Gibson instead of Sefolosha. For one, Sefolosha's defense on Parker in last year's WCF was probably the biggest reason that series turned around. He's a perfect fit in the starting lineup alongside Westbrook and Durant. An elite perimeter defender who doesn't need the ball in his hands but is a very capable knockdown 3P shooter. Also, the dynamic of Harden coming off the bench is what I think made them click. If OKC had Gibson instead of Sefolosha, then Harden would've been starting and an already weak bench (after Harden) would probably be even weaker. And like you said, Gibson and Ibaka are somewhat redundant, but Ibaka is the better player and 4 years younger than Gibson.

Quote:
Edit: In any case, I think we're on the same side of the debate ITS. They're not "stacked" in the conventional sense just because their FO did their f*cking job and was smart about building the team. It's quite miraculous how far they've come in such a short time. Tell any Sonic/Thunder fan in 07 that they'd be a top-3 favorite to win the title in 5 years and they would love that, I'm sure.
Yeah, stacked doesn't really seem to be an adequate description of the 2012 Thunder, with emphasis on 2012. You also have to take into account how young OKC's top four players were. Going back and studying the history of past NBA champions, and you see teams that young (regardless of how talented they are) just don't win championships. If it was this year or another 2-3 years down the line and they got back to the finals and lost, fine, label them chokers, but it's stupid to do that when they were in their early 20's.

And in '08-'09, after they started 3-29, I didn't even think they'd be in the playoffs the following year. But from that 3-29 start in 2009 to 50-32 and giving the eventual champs all they could handle in the first round in 2010? Didn't see that coming. At the same time you could kind of sense they weren't your typical young 3-29 team at that point in the 2009 season. They were losing a lot of close games, Durant was already showing flashes of greatness, Westbrook was having a really good rookie season, and Jeff Green was putting together a really solid sophomore campaign. 2010 was Harden's and Ibaka's rookie season, but they were still a Pau Gasol putback away from taking the Lakers to 7-games.

While as an OKC fan them getting to the Finals last year was great, I think it's somewhat unfairly raised their expectations too high for others. I'm not sure people realize how young their "Big 3" still are and how insanely fast they've gotten to this level. From 3-29/23-59 to the NBA Finals in 3 years isn't supposed to happen.

Last edited by KG215 : 03-05-2013 at 04:24 AM.
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:05 AM   #13
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Default Re: History will remember OKC as stacked chokers

Quote:
Originally Posted by KG215
Yeah, and in hindsight having someone like Glen Davis coming off the bench would be nice. It'd be hard to play a frontcourt of him and Collison together, but a frontcourt of stretches where he's on the floor with the starters at PF and Ibaka at C would definitely be intriguing.

I actually hadn't considered what OKC would have done with Davis. I just meant that they're good at finding talent in the draft, and Davis was an example of that.

But yeah, I can see where his value would have been to this Thunder team. Although, perhaps it was better to let him grow up under Garnett. Who knows what kind of tantrums he would have thrown in OKC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KG215
I agree, but I'm not sure they'd be better with Gibson instead of Sefolosha. For one, Sefolosha's defense on Parker in last year's WCF was probably the biggest reason that series turned around. He's a perfect fit in the starting lineup alongside Westbrook and Durant. An elite perimeter defender who doesn't need the ball in his hands but is a very capable knockdown 3P shooter. Also, the dynamic of Harden coming off the bench is what I think made them click. If OKC had Gibson instead of Sefolosha, then Harden would've been starting and an already weak bench (after Harden) would probably be even weaker. And like you said, Gibson and Ibaka are somewhat redundant, but Ibaka is the better player and 4 years younger than Gibson.

Sorry if my wording was confusing; I wasn't saying they would be better with Gibson instead of Sefolosha. In fact, I was saying almost exactly what you're saying, now. But I made the distinction between adding Gibson to this Thunder team right now (which would make them a much better team, I think) and swapping him with Sefolosha (which would be terrible). My larger point was that the Thunder did a good thing by trading the pick for Sefolosha, even though that pick was to become Gibson, who is a good player, simply because they needed perimeter defense and had other options at the PF (i.e. Ibaka). I was just trying to pre-empt anyone saying, "The Sefolosha trade was retarded! They could have had Taj Gibson!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by KG215
Yeah, stacked doesn't really seem to be an adequate description of the 2012 Thunder, with emphasis on 2012. You also have to take into account how young OKC's top four players were. Going back and studying the history of past NBA champions, and you see teams that young (regardless of how talented they are) just don't win championships. If it was this year or another 2-3 years down the line and they got back to the finals and lost, fine, label them chokers, but it's stupid to do that when they were in their early 20's.

And in '08-'09, after they started 3-29, I didn't even think they'd be in the playoffs the following year. But from that 3-29 start in 2009 to 50-32 and giving the eventual champs all they could handle in the first round in 2010? Didn't see that coming. At the same time you could kind of sense they weren't your typical young 3-29 team at that point in the 2009 season. They were losing a lot of close games, Durant was already showing flashes of greatness, Westbrook was having a really good rookie season, and Jeff Green was putting together a really solid sophomore campaign. 2010 was Harden and Ibaka's rookie season (they were good but not great rookies, although Harden especially showed flashes of being really good) but we were still a Pau Gasol putback away from taking the Lakers to 7-games.

While as an OKC fan them getting to the Finals last year was great, I think it's somewhat unfairly raised their expectations too high for others. I'm not sure people realize how young their "Big 3" still are and how insanely fast they've gotten to this level. From 3-29/23-59 to the NBA Finals in 3 years isn't supposed to happen.

Yeah, I completely agree. It's ridiculous to expect so much out of them. Winning with such a young team, devoid of serious playoff experience (though they did make the postseason two years in a row before the Finals appearance), appearing in the Finals for the first time against a veteran playoff/Finals team like the Heat would have been quite literally unprecedented.

Only team I can think that would have been similar would be the 91 Bulls. Everyone thought they would lose their first time around because that's what happened to first time Finals teams, especially against a perennial title contender like the Magic-led Lakers. But the Bulls had a lot more playoff experience than the Thunder did by last year. They had played (and lost to) the Pistons three times before sweeping them in 91, and had played in the postseason several seasons before that (usually getting swept by Boston, but also playing some great series against Cleveland).



Those Pau and Ron Artest putbacks were bullsh*t. Reeeeeeally wanted the Lakers to lose those games...
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:15 AM   #14
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Default Re: History will remember OKC as stacked chokers

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaSeba5
Great post, but this is only a troll thread. It's not worth the effort.

Yeah, you're right.

"Choke" is kind of a buzz-word for me, I guess. It's misapplied seemingly at every turn.
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:57 AM   #15
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Default Re: History will remember OKC as stacked chokers

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Originally Posted by D-Wade316
Negged. Will neg again.

This.
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