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Old 03-02-2013, 01:33 AM   #16
TMac&Luther
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Default Re: Why does everyone go to Hakeem to work on their post up game?

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Originally Posted by TMac&Luther
You act like the only thing Hakeem did or can teach these players is a fade away. That's just false, that was just one club in Hakeem's bag of tricks. Hell the majority of Hakeem's post moves were "fakes and up and unders" so I don't understand your criticism. Seriously go watch the Youtube video of Hakeem undressing David Robinson.

Furthermore another reason why players go to Hakeem for their post moves is because the guy had arguably the best footwork in the league when he played and he has a lot of knowledge that he can pass down that players can develop and add their own style/technique to. Well anybody, but Dwight Howard, because he's about the only player who hasn't improved after working with Hakeem.

Here it is.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0

I'm counting one real fade away in the entire video.. the other borderline one was more of just a fake turn around jumper. Just because Bill Worrell labeled that nasty fade away move the "Dream Shake" people are starting to act like that's all Hakeem did or something. His post moves (and he had a ton of them) were all in the feet, watch his feet, and you'll get your answer why people want to go and learn from him. That's the true lost art in this game, good foot work. People called me crazy, but even though he isn't near the caliber athlete that Hakeem was.. Scola had crazy footwork as well, it actually reminded me of Hakeem. Reason why a undersized unathletic PF who played below the rim was so damn good at getting his shot off in the post.

Footwork, footwork, footwork. I miss it.

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Old 03-02-2013, 01:48 AM   #17
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Default Re: Why does everyone go to Hakeem to work on their post up game?

He's more recent and the guy that they know. It's not particularly difficult to understand. LeBron, for instance, wasn't even 3 years old when McHale was averaging 26 on 60% FG and 80% FT. He was 10 when Hakeem "bamboozled" Robinson. Which of the two is he going to have any memory of? Why would he even necessarily know anything about McHale as a player at all (not saying he does or doesn't), let alone seek him out for help on post moves? There's nothing about the job requirements of an NBA player that requires them to know anything beyond their competition and, of course, whomever they grew up watching as they aspired to play in the NBA (e.g., Shaq not knowing Lenny Wilkens played in the league when he made the same Top 50 Shaq did, or that Bill Walton won two titles, as a couple of examples). Anyone who does is an exception. Hakeem's the one who's going to be fresher in people's memories, so he's going to be the one players go to for help on post moves. Simple.
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Old 03-02-2013, 01:52 AM   #18
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Default Re: Why does everyone go to Hakeem to work on their post up game?

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Originally Posted by imnew09
They should go to Kareem and learn that hook shot.

This has been rehashed over the decades. It isn't cool enough for players to take any interest in learning. There were articles on this beginning shortly after Kareem retired, and it usually comes back up every so often.
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Old 03-02-2013, 01:53 AM   #19
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Default Re: Why does everyone go to Hakeem to work on their post up game?

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Originally Posted by TMac&Luther
Well anybody, but Dwight Howard, because he's about the only player who hasn't improved after working with Hakeem.

Actually, Dwight did as well. Whether it was coincidental, I don't know, but Dwight worked with Hakeem in the summer of 2010 and came back a MUCH better offensive player than ever before, and certainly better than what he's showing right now.
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Old 03-02-2013, 02:01 AM   #20
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Default Re: Why does everyone go to Hakeem to work on their post up game?

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Originally Posted by ThaRegul8r
He's more recent and the guy that they know. It's not particularly difficult to understand. LeBron, for instance, wasn't even 3 years old when McHale was averaging 26 on 60% FG and 80% FT. He was 10 when Hakeem "bamboozled" Robinson. Which of the two is he going to have any memory of? Why would he even necessarily know anything about McHale as a player at all (not saying he does or doesn't), let alone seek him out for help on post moves? There's nothing about the job requirements of an NBA player that requires them to know anything beyond their competition and, of course, whomever they grew up watching as they aspired to play in the NBA (e.g., Shaq not knowing Lenny Wilkens played in the league when he made the same Top 50 Shaq did, or that Bill Walton won two titles, as a couple of examples). Anyone who does is an exception. Hakeem's the one who's going to be fresher in people's memories, so he's going to be the one players go to for help on post moves. Simple.

Seriously doubt that has anything to do with it...

Look at the players who seaked him out.. Kobe and Lebron, players who can't operate strictly under the basket like other big men can. Hence you need a player who's skills allowed him to operate well from the basket. Hakeem had guard like athleticism/quickness and even had a great handle for a big man. Great players are historians of the game, they study the game... reason why Kobe even said he took things away from Russell.. and Russell stopped playing before he was born. Hakeem was a big man who's game and lessons could extend past his own position. He had the footwork, athleticism, repertoire of post moves, and handle that even wing players could learn from. The reason why these guys go to Hakeem isn't just because of "post moves". Think about it.. look at the players who have looked him up.

Dwight Howard C
Lebron James F
Kobe Bryant SG

3 completely different positions.

His knowledge and skills transcended positions. You really think Kobe is going to taylor his game after a sky hook or in Malone's case, just running off a P&R to a open area and looking for a taylor made pass?

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Old 03-02-2013, 02:05 AM   #21
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Default Re: Why does everyone go to Hakeem to work on their post up game?

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Originally Posted by Collie
His true strength was his footwork. If he had the fadeaway, but not the other stuff, he wouldn't be half as effective. That's why all the other guys look awkward when pulling off Hakeem's moves.
That's why it's useful to learn it. You don't have to suddenly start copying Hakeem post moves for it to be useful. The basic footwork.. any player can benefit from.. and then apply it to their own game. Balance.. spins.. footwork.. pivoting.. and becoming really effecient in your movements etc. Getting to the right spots, as quick and with as minimal effort as possible etc.

It even helps from a defensive point of view.. and anticipating what the post player will do.
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Old 03-02-2013, 02:08 AM   #22
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Default Re: Why does everyone go to Hakeem to work on their post up game?

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Originally Posted by TMac&Luther
Here it is.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0

I'm counting one real fade away in the entire video.. the other borderline one was more of just a fake turn around jumper. Just because Bill Worrell labeled that nasty fade away move the "Dream Shake" people are starting to act like that's all Hakeem did or something. His post moves (and he had a ton of them) were all in the feet, watch his feet, and you'll get your answer why people want to go and learn from him. That's the true lost art in this game, good foot work. People called me crazy, but even though he isn't near the caliber athlete that Hakeem was.. Scola had crazy footwork as well, it actually reminded me of Hakeem. Reason why a undersized unathletic PF who played below the rim was so damn good at getting his shot off in the post.

Footwork, footwork, footwork. I miss it.

I'm not even saying that, that is all Hakeem had...because it isn't. I've even said some players should try to make their games like other players...like Dwight I always thought should try to emulate Robinson...but he has obviously shown he doesn't have the hands and ball handling ability to play like Robinson even if his athleticism is similar. That is one of the things that makes David Robinson so underrated...The guy could handle the ball and run the floor like he was a SF ala Scottie Pippen. ONE SERIES VS THE ROCKETS AND HAKEEM BASICALLY KILLED HIS LEGACY...but he was a beast especially defensively and overall as a player. When Jordan retired it was David Robinson who led the league in PER in 94, 95...and he led it in 96 too Jordan's first year back along with Drating. He's the most underrated player ever considering how much he dominated on teams that had team mates that just weren't that great.

He's almost like Lebron now in that because he didn't have this go to dominant move that makes him less of a player when for about three years he was easily the most dominant player in the league by production. Everyone loves to bring up how Robinson was never this terrific post player, but dont' bring up how he averaged 10fta's every year because he was so athletic, quick, and had handles off the dribble that he could get to the basket at will and force you to foul him. It wasn't like Robinson was a Shaq or Howard either...he shot 70+% from the ft line so you didn't want to foul him...YOU HAD TO.

Last edited by Smoke117 : 03-02-2013 at 02:15 AM.
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Old 03-02-2013, 02:31 AM   #23
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Default Re: Why does everyone go to Hakeem to work on their post up game?

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Originally Posted by Smoke117
I'm not even saying that, that is all Hakeem had...because it isn't. I've even said some players should try to make their games like other players...like Dwight I always thought should try to emulate Robinson...but he has obviously shown he doesn't have the hands and ball handling ability to play like Robinson even if his athleticism is similar. That is one of the things that makes David Robinson so underrated...The guy could handle the ball and run the floor like he was a SF ala Scottie Pippen. ONE SERIES VS THE ROCKETS AND HAKEEM BASICALLY KILLED HIS LEGACY...but he was a beast especially defensively and overall as a player. When Jordan retired it was David Robinson who led the league in PER in 94, 95...and he led it in 96 too Jordan's first year back along with Drating. He's the most underrated player ever considering how much he dominated on teams that had team mates that just weren't that great.

He's almost like Lebron now in that because he didn't have this go to dominant move that makes him less of a player when for about three years he was easily the most dominant player in the league by production. Everyone loves to bring up how Robinson was never this terrific post player, but dont' bring up how he averaged 10fta's every year because he was so athletic, quick, and had handles off the dribble that he could get to the basket at will and force you to foul him. It wasn't like Robinson was a Shaq or Howard either...he shot 70+% from the ft line so you didn't want to foul him...YOU HAD TO.

And the same could be said about Hakeem during that same time period, who could also run and jump like a deer for his size.. yet Hakeem played with less talented players (possibly the least talented group of a surrounding cast to ever win a championship, '94), but Hakeem was a superior defender than Robinson ever was and that isn't even arguable.

Also the reason why Hakeem destroyed his legacy in that series.. that series was the on the court deciding factor between two players in their prime and David Robinson didn't just "get beat".. he was left searching for answers and was shell shocked like he just got hit by a train.

Robinson was a HOF big man, but his legacy was stunted in that series and it should've been. If Robinson would've embarrassed Hakeem the same way Hakeem embarrassed him, we wouldn't' remember Hakeem in the same regard either. It was a legendary series.. a legendary defining series and Robinson got curb stomped.

P.S.

During both of their primes.. Robinson was never "easily the most dominant player in the league for 3 years".

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Old 03-02-2013, 02:38 AM   #24
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Default Re: Why does everyone go to Hakeem to work on their post up game?

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Originally Posted by TMac&Luther
Great players are historians of the game, they study the game... reason why Kobe even said he took things away from Russell.. and Russell stopped playing before he was born.

Great players are not necessarily historians of the game. I just gave the example of Shaq, who didn't know basic knowledge. For instance, how are you going to ask whether someone even played when they were voted as part of the same Top 50 you were? It shows he didn't even bother to look at the list of the 49 other players he was voted in along with, and he would have seen Wilkens' name listed and wouldn't have sounded ignorant. And it isn't as if Walton is some obscure player, that one wouldn't know how he led Portland to a title and that he was 6MOY and a pivotal contributor to the '86 Celtics. This is stuff it doesn't take a historian to know, and it's a guy who played your position. But as I said, there is nothing in the job description of an NBA player that requires them to be a historian. They're playing against contemporary players.

And Kobe had a father who played the game, who's old enough to have memory of Russell playing. In that instance, when an aspiring NBA player has such a resource, all one has to do is pay attention when he talks and ask questions, supplemented by your own research on what he says. That would qualify as one of the exceptions I did speak of. Hardly typical of most NBA players.
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Old 03-02-2013, 02:40 AM   #25
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Default Re: Why does everyone go to Hakeem to work on their post up game?

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Originally Posted by TMac&Luther
And the same could be said about Hakeem during that same time period, who could also run and jump like a deer for his size.. yet Hakeem played with less talented players (possibly the least talented group of a surrounding cast to ever win a championship, '94), but Hakeem was a superior defender than Robinson ever was and that isn't even arguable.

Also the reason why Hakeem destroyed his legacy in that series.. that series was the on the court deciding factor between two players in their prime and David Robinson didn't just "get beat".. he was left searching for answers and was shell shocked like he just got hit by a train.

Robinson was a HOF big man, but his legacy was stunted in that series and it should've been. If Robinson would've embarrassed Hakeem the same way Hakeem embarrassed him, we wouldn't' remember Hakeem in the same regard either. It was a legendary series.. a legendary defining series and Robinson got curb stomped.

P.S.

During both of their primes.. Robinson was never "easily the most dominant player".


That isn't even true. People think that Hakeem DOMINATED ROBINSON, but that wasn't true...Drob averaged 25ppg on good efficiency in that series himself. Yes it is embarrassing how he fell for all those Dream Fakes in that series, but Robinson still had a good series himself in that match up People think that Hakeem shut down Robinson when he averaged 25ppg on good effiency himself in that series...not to mention in general throughout their careers with regular season games and what not Robinson actually has the edge over Hakeem. One Seven game series basically seems to have made their legacies when it's bullshit considering Robinson got the best of Hakeem overall in their careers.
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Old 03-02-2013, 02:48 AM   #26
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Default Re: Why does everyone go to Hakeem to work on their post up game?

1. KG has a plethora of post moves, great footwork, and great court vision. It's kind of tough to use them all when you have to be a 7' PG and set yourself up. He learned from McHale, was crazy athletic, and skilled. It's undeniable if you watched him. He was never transcendent offensively because he had to do so many other things... But he had it all (except relied a bit too much on the jumper).

2. Hakeem doesn't focus on fadeaways. If you watch the videos of him working with guys he emphasizes the countermove.

All of the power comes from the counter move. A guy has to respect your first move, but then you counter, and counter the counter.

The entire philosophy of Hakeem is to use awareness, footwork, and body positioning to fluidly transition into multiple moves. Always give yourself an out so you can't be stopped.
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Old 03-02-2013, 02:58 AM   #27
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Default Re: Why does everyone go to Hakeem to work on their post up game?

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Originally Posted by Smoke117
That isn't even true. People think that Hakeem DOMINATED ROBINSON, but that wasn't true...Drob averaged 25ppg on good efficiency in that series himself. Yes it is embarrassing how he fell for all those Dream Fakes in that series, but Robinson still had a good series himself in that match up People think that Hakeem shut down Robinson when he averaged 25ppg on good effiency himself in that series...not to mention in general throughout their careers with regular season games and what not Robinson actually has the edge over Hakeem. One Seven game series basically seems to have made their legacies when it's bullshit considering Robinson got the best of Hakeem overall in their careers.

What are you talking about The NBA even ran a "NBA Playoffs, where legacies are made" campaign before. And pulling up his series average like he scored all those points on Hakeem is a joke, as well as all these efficiency stats. Hakeem hands down won the match up. Like I said, Robinson usually always had the more talented teams throughout their careers so it doesn't surprise me his team might of had greater "regular season success", but when it was nut cutting time in Robinson's MVP season nonetheless, Olajuwon handed him his ass.. reason why the series is still talked about today. Nobody will every forget the look Robinson had on his face (or how defeated and beaten he sounded in the press conferences), did that really look like a player who "held his own". Stop trying to be a revisionist historian here, even Robinson knew he had it handed to him and he knew it as soon as it was over.

You said for about three straight years Robinson was the most dominant player in the league.. sorry pulled up their career years and I'm not seeing it and after looking at their career averages (which Hakeem was also a 70+% FT shooter and could not be hacked) Olajuwon beat him in almost every category with Olajuwon having a by far deciding edge on the defensive end. Olajuwon was simply a better overall player (you pretty much already conceded that with you admitting that Robinson wasn't as skilled with post moves). Robinson despite having better teams didn't finally push through until Duncan came on board. Olajuwon actually carried two teams to a title as the lead player. Hell even was the only player who carried a 7th seed to a title and the only team who defeated 4 50 win teams along the way.

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Old 03-02-2013, 03:24 AM   #28
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Default Re: Why does everyone go to Hakeem to work on their post up game?

First of all, any idiot that thinks Kobe Bryant has 1 go to post move and it's a fade away should be banned from this site for ignorance and stupidity.

The reason people go to Hakeem is because, like he says himself, his post moves work great for big guys buy work even better for guys like Kobe. Hakeem grew up playing soccer. He has little man speed on the block. He was nasty nasty nasty with his moves. It translate and looks much better when someone between Kobe and Lebron's height pulls those moves off.
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Old 03-02-2013, 05:07 PM   #29
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Default Re: Why does everyone go to Hakeem to work on their post up game?

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Originally Posted by Smoke117
I'm not even saying that, that is all Hakeem had...because it isn't. I've even said some players should try to make their games like other players...like Dwight I always thought should try to emulate Robinson...but he has obviously shown he doesn't have the hands and ball handling ability to play like Robinson even if his athleticism is similar. That is one of the things that makes David Robinson so underrated...The guy could handle the ball and run the floor like he was a SF ala Scottie Pippen. ONE SERIES VS THE ROCKETS AND HAKEEM BASICALLY KILLED HIS LEGACY...but he was a beast especially defensively and overall as a player. When Jordan retired it was David Robinson who led the league in PER in 94, 95...and he led it in 96 too Jordan's first year back along with Drating. He's the most underrated player ever considering how much he dominated on teams that had team mates that just weren't that great.

He's almost like Lebron now in that because he didn't have this go to dominant move that makes him less of a player when for about three years he was easily the most dominant player in the league by production. Everyone loves to bring up how Robinson was never this terrific post player, but dont' bring up how he averaged 10fta's every year because he was so athletic, quick, and had handles off the dribble that he could get to the basket at will and force you to foul him. It wasn't like Robinson was a Shaq or Howard either...he shot 70+% from the ft line so you didn't want to foul him...YOU HAD TO.



You went completely beyond your original point but anything that serves to prop up Admiral is fine with me. One of the best players I've ever seen and one of my favorite players of all-time.


The guy pretty much averaged a point and a half per attempt for his career. Just under.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMac&Luther
And the same could be said about Hakeem during that same time period, who could also run and jump like a deer for his size.. yet Hakeem played with less talented players (possibly the least talented group of a surrounding cast to ever win a championship, '94), but Hakeem was a superior defender than Robinson ever was and that isn't even arguable.

Also the reason why Hakeem destroyed his legacy in that series.. that series was the on the court deciding factor between two players in their prime and David Robinson didn't just "get beat".. he was left searching for answers and was shell shocked like he just got hit by a train.

Robinson was a HOF big man, but his legacy was stunted in that series and it should've been. If Robinson would've embarrassed Hakeem the same way Hakeem embarrassed him, we wouldn't' remember Hakeem in the same regard either. It was a legendary series.. a legendary defining series and Robinson got curb stomped.

P.S.

During both of their primes.. Robinson was never "easily the most dominant player in the league for 3 years".



For the most part this is wrong. Over the regular seasons, Robinson was definitely better, but Hakeem was the better player in the playoffs, winning two rings and producing one of the greatest runs ever.


But Robinson hardly deserved to be judged for that series. He simply caught one guy's greatest performance. The Spurs were worse outside their big man than the Rockets were...close in 94 but definitely in 95. That series doesn't even go 6 games against Ewing or Shaq...not the way Hakeem was playing.


But what I don't get is why are you bringing up Hakeem at all?
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Old 03-02-2013, 05:22 PM   #30
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Default Re: Why does everyone go to Hakeem to work on their post up game?

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You went completely beyond your original point but anything that serves to prop up Admiral is fine with me. One of the best players I've ever seen and one of my favorite players of all-time.


The guy pretty much averaged a point and a half per attempt for his career. Just under.





For the most part this is wrong. Over the regular seasons, Robinson was definitely better, but Hakeem was the better player in the playoffs, winning two rings and producing one of the greatest runs ever.


But Robinson hardly deserved to be judged for that series. He simply caught one guy's greatest performance. The Spurs were worse outside their big man than the Rockets were...close in 94 but definitely in 95. That series doesn't even go 6 games against Ewing or Shaq...not the way Hakeem was playing.


But what I don't get is why are you bringing up Hakeem at all?


Hakeem is in the damn thread title, the guy is acting like Robinson was the unquestioned most dominant player in the league for a 3 year stretch when he wasn't even the most dominant player in his own State... What is there not to get?

I swear, this might age me, but it's getting to the point where you have stat geaks pulling up "efficientcy ratings" or "points per". I actually got the privledge of watching these players face off and Olajuwon was easily the greater player.. hands down. BTW do y'all's "efficientcy ratings and points per" cover defense? You know there was another side of the court. Even in the regular season Hakeem was the better ovrl complete player.

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