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Old 02-27-2013, 11:09 AM   #31
TheMarkMadsen
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Default Re: So how about Dwyane Wade for the month?

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Wade316
I'll say 5(including '04).

04: Tie
05: Wade
06: Wade
07: Lebron
08: Lebron
09: Lebron
10: Lebron
11: Wade
12: Lebron
13: Lebron


I'd give 09 to wade. He was better statistically in almost every category
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:09 AM   #32
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Default Re: So how about Dwyane Wade for the month?

Quote:
Originally Posted by guy
Not sure what you're trying to imply here, but he's definitely not in Lebron's class nor has his overall career been. He's had individual seasons here and there, but thats it.



That's really not true...I think Wade is remarkably under-appreciated and he was right there with LeBron and much of the time ahead of him, especially in career...up until 2011 especially.


Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Wade316
I'll say 5(including '04).

04: Tie
05: Wade
06: Wade
07: Lebron
08: Lebron
09: Lebron
10: Lebron
11: Wade
12: Lebron
13: Lebron



Are you including playoffs or just the regular season?
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:10 AM   #33
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Default Re: So how about Dwyane Wade for the month?

Quote:
Originally Posted by guy
Ummm, they don't play the same amount of minutes though? We don't care about how much they produce per minute, we care about how much they actually produce. Throw in the fact that Lebron has basically played a full season every season of his career and is arguably the most durable player ever, while Wade has had multiple seasons where he's missed a significant amount of games and even that doesn't tell the whole story of his durability because he's played a ton of games handicapped with injuries. Lebron's been more consistent throughout his career, which is what per 36 stats usually hide. I would say out of their 10 seasons in the league, they've been in the same class for 4 of those seasons, which are 05, 06, 09, and 11. 07 is debateable depending on how much you weigh Wade's injury. In 08, 10, 12, 13, Lebron was clearly playing at a higher class then Wade, while Wade has never separated himself from Lebron like that. Don't get me wrong, Wade is absolutely an all-time great player and clearly one of the greatest players ever. But for his career, he's basically a much smaller, significantly less durable, with lesser passing skills version of Lebron. I wouldn't call that being in the same class.

Then we're arguing semantics. I contend that for at least the years 2005 - 2011 (excluding 2008), he has been in the LeBron/Kobe class; however, I rank both players above him. But, he is/was definitely in the same strata.

And don't undersell Wade's passing, by far his most underrated skill. He routinely makes passes that, were they made by LeBron, would cause commentators to have verbal orgasms.

But, if you really want to put things in perspective, look at every great moment early in Wade's career and imagine what media reaction would have been if it had been LeBron doing the same.

LEBRON JAMES hits the gamewinner in his first ever playoff game as a rookie!

LEBRON JAMES hits his second gamewinner in his fifth playoff game as a rookie!

LEBRON JAMES as a rookie leads the Heat to the brink of Game 7 in the 2nd round against the NBA's #1 seed!

LEBRON JAMES in his second year, playing alongside a barely mobile Shaquille O'Neal, led the Heat to a commanding position in the conference finals against the defending champs, and only his freak injury caused the Heat to lose in seven games!

LEBRON JAMES in his third year, shoots 62% for the series against the Pistons in a rematch of last year's conference finals and this time leads the Heat to the Finals!

LEBRON JAMES drags his team to the title in a historic Finals performance in just his third year!


Do you get it now?

Last edited by jrong : 02-27-2013 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:20 AM   #34
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Default Re: So how about Dwyane Wade for the month?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrong
Then we're arguing semantics. I contend that for at least the years 2005 - 2011 (excluding 2008), he has been in the LeBron/Kobe class; however, I rank both players above him. But, he is/was definitely in the same strata.

And don't undersell Wade's passing, by far his most underrated skill. He routinely makes passes that, were they made by LeBron, would cause commentators to have verbal orgasms.

But, if you really want to put things in perspective, look at every great moment early in Wade's career and imagine what media reaction would have been if it had been LeBron doing the same.

LEBRON JAMES hits the gamewinner in his first ever playoff game as a rookie!

LEBRON JAMES hits his second gamewinner in his fifth playoff game as a rookie!

LEBRON JAMES as a rookie leads the Heat to the brink of Game 7 in the 2nd round against the NBA's #1 seed!

LEBRON JAMES in his second year, playing alongside a barely mobile Shaquille O'Neal, led the Heat to a commanding position in the conference finals against the defending champs, and only his freak injury caused the Heat to lose in seven games!

LEBRON JAMES in his third year, shoots 62% against the Pistons in a rematch of last year's conference finals and this time leads the Heat to the Finals!

LEBRON JAMES drags his team to the title in a historic Finals performance in just his third year!


Do you get it now?
This was a great read.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:21 AM   #35
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Default Re: So how about Dwyane Wade for the month?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrong
Then we're arguing semantics. I contend that for at least the years 2005 - 2011 (excluding 2008), he has been in the LeBron/Kobe class; however, I rank both players above him. But, he is/was definitely in the same strata.

And don't undersell Wade's passing, by far his most underrated skill. He routinely makes passes that, were they made by LeBron, would cause commentators to have verbal orgasms.

But, if you really want to put things in perspective, look at every great moment early in Wade's career and imagine what media reaction would have been if it had been LeBron doing the same.

LEBRON JAMES hits the gamewinner in his first ever playoff game as a rookie!


LEBRON JAMES hits his second gamewinner in his fifth playoff game as a rookie!

LEBRON JAMES as a rookie leads the Heat to the brink of Game 7 in the 2nd round against the NBA's #1 seed!

LEBRON JAMES in his second year, playing alongside a barely mobile Shaquille O'Neal, led the Heat to a commanding position in the conference finals against the defending champs, and only his freak injury caused the Heat to lose in seven games!

LEBRON JAMES in his third year, shoots 62% against the Pistons in a rematch of last year's conference finals and this time leads the Heat to the Finals!

LEBRON JAMES drags his team to the title in a historic Finals performance in just his third year!


Do you get it now?

there's a lot of truth to this.

If Lebron in his 3rd year in the League would have dominated the finals like Wade did we WOULD NEVER HEAR THE END OF IT
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:27 AM   #36
guy
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Default Re: So how about Dwyane Wade for the month?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrong
Then we're arguing semantics. I contend that for at least the years 2005 - 2011 (excluding 2008), he has been in the LeBron/Kobe class; however, I rank both players above him. But, he is/was definitely in the same strata.

And don't undersell Wade's passing, by far his most underrated skill. He routinely makes passes that, were they made by LeBron, would cause commentators to have verbal orgasms.

But, if you really want to put things in perspective, look at every great moment early in Wade's career and imagine what media reaction would have been if it had been LeBron doing the same.

LEBRON JAMES hits the gamewinner in his first ever playoff game as a rookie!

LEBRON JAMES hits his second gamewinner in his fifth playoff game as a rookie!

LEBRON JAMES as a rookie leads the Heat to the brink of Game 7 in the 2nd round against the NBA's #1 seed!

LEBRON JAMES in his second year, playing alongside a barely mobile Shaquille O'Neal, led the Heat to a commanding position in the conference finals against the defending champs, and only his freak injury caused the Heat to lose in seven games!

LEBRON JAMES in his third year, shoots 62% against the Pistons in a rematch of last year's conference finals and this time leads the Heat to the Finals!

LEBRON JAMES drags his team to the title in a historic Finals performance in just his third year!


Do you get it now?

You just brought up their first 3 seasons. If we were just talking about those 3 seasons, I'd absolutely agree with you. After 06, it was very debateable who was better between the 2 and who was going to have the better career. But in the 7 seasons since then, Lebron has been clearly in a different class for 4.5 of those seasons (second half of 07, 08, 10, 12, 13). We are talking about almost half their careers one has been significantly better then the other, while in the other seasons they've been at the same level. I would say overall that means one has been at another level. And the fact that part of the reason for that has been Wade has been injured or whatever doesn't change that. And I'm not underselling Wade's passing, but he's still not comparable to Lebron in that regard.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:33 AM   #37
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Default Re: So how about Dwyane Wade for the month?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
That's really not true...I think Wade is remarkably under-appreciated and he was right there with LeBron and much of the time ahead of him, especially in career...up until 2011 especially.






Are you including playoffs or just the regular season?
Including playoffs.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:40 AM   #38
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Default Re: So how about Dwyane Wade for the month?

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Wade316
Including playoffs.



Shame Wade got hurt in 2007...he was playing ridiculous. I'd give it to him for 2009 too...LeBron was great for most of the playoffs but Wade did everything he could to carry that team.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:43 AM   #39
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Default Re: So how about Dwyane Wade for the month?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMarkMadsen
there's a lot of truth to this.

If Lebron in his 3rd year in the League would have dominated the finals like Wade did we WOULD NEVER HEAR THE END OF IT

We would never hear the end of it if he didn't continue to have the consistently high level career he's had.

Put it like this, if it were Wade instead of Lebron that was hyped up from the beginning as potentially a top 3-5 player of all-time, after his first 3 seasons, alot of people would agree that he was still on that path. But after that, most would agree that he's not and eventually would agree that he has no shot of it anymore. If simultaneously, Lebron was the one that came out of nowhere like Wade did, and did the stuff that he did winning 3 MVPs, 1 championship, out of this world statistics, etc. then he'd probably eventually get the same coverage he's been getting by his 3rd or 4th season.

Point being, the media doesn't just cover Lebron significantly more then Wade because of some narrative they are trying to produce. They cover him more cause he's in a different class.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:46 AM   #40
jrong
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Default Re: So how about Dwyane Wade for the month?

Quote:
Originally Posted by guy
You just brought up their first 3 seasons. If we were just talking about those 3 seasons, I'd absolutely agree with you. After 06, it was very debateable who was better between the 2 and who was going to have the better career. But in the 7 seasons since then, Lebron has been clearly in a different class for 4.5 of those seasons (second half of 07, 08, 10, 12, 13). We are talking about almost half their careers one has been significantly better then the other, while in the other seasons they've been at the same level. I would say overall that means one has been at another level. And the fact that part of the reason for that has been Wade has been injured or whatever doesn't change that. And I'm not underselling Wade's passing, but he's still not comparable to Lebron in that regard.

And how different would mass perception of Wade be today if he had gotten the kind of acclaim LeBron would have gotten for doing what he did in those first three years?

My central thesis or one of them, if and when I ever publish something on the subject, is that Wade suffers from what I term "lagging perception." In other words, because the media and most fans (as a result of the media) have never realized how good he was, they still don't get it.

If LeBron (or Melo) had Wade's resume from 2004 - 2006, they would have been deified, enshrined. But, Wade wasn't supposed to be that guy. And by the time he had deposed Melo from the #2 spot out of the class of 2003, he would still become the forgotten man in the Kobe/Bron comparisons for best player in the league.

Personally, though, I could care less about comparisons to LeBron/Kobe, as long as it is acknowledged that Wade is/was on that general level. If people want to then rank the other two above him-- well, I do too.

What I want to see, when it's all said and done, is Dwyane Wade widely acknowledged as:

1. 3rd best SG ever
2. top 15 or 20 player all-time

I would have a lot more confidence that "they" will eventually realize that he really IS that good if they had EVER realized how good he is.

Last edited by jrong : 02-27-2013 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:51 AM   #41
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Default Re: So how about Dwyane Wade for the month?

I remember the old days when I used to argue for Wade being right there with LeBron and Kobe, and where they were all the top 3 players in the league. Wade has always seemed to be an under the radar guy, but it's probably because Miami used to be an indifferent team that nobody really talked about. Wade didn't have the hype of LeBron, or the credit of being on an elite franchise like the Lakers.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:54 AM   #42
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Default Re: So how about Dwyane Wade for the month?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrong
Then we're arguing semantics. I contend that for at least the years 2005 - 2011 (excluding 2008), he has been in the LeBron/Kobe class; however, I rank both players above him. But, he is/was definitely in the same strata.

And don't undersell Wade's passing, by far his most underrated skill. He routinely makes passes that, were they made by LeBron, would cause commentators to have verbal orgasms.

But, if you really want to put things in perspective, look at every great moment early in Wade's career and imagine what media reaction would have been if it had been LeBron doing the same.

LEBRON JAMES hits the gamewinner in his first ever playoff game as a rookie!

LEBRON JAMES hits his second gamewinner in his fifth playoff game as a rookie!

LEBRON JAMES as a rookie leads the Heat to the brink of Game 7 in the 2nd round against the NBA's #1 seed!

LEBRON JAMES in his second year, playing alongside a barely mobile Shaquille O'Neal, led the Heat to a commanding position in the conference finals against the defending champs, and only his freak injury caused the Heat to lose in seven games!

LEBRON JAMES in his third year, shoots 62% for the series against the Pistons in a rematch of last year's conference finals and this time leads the Heat to the Finals!

LEBRON JAMES drags his team to the title in a historic Finals performance in just his third year!


Do you get it now?
Stop it. Shaq was still great, especially in his first year in Miami. He was like 2nd in MVP voting .
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:56 AM   #43
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Default Re: So how about Dwyane Wade for the month?

It great to see Wade playing like this. I've said many times that with the way the Heat are constructed, they need both he and Lebron to dominate in order to be ultimately successful in the playoffs, especially considering their deficiences up front.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:57 AM   #44
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Default Re: So how about Dwyane Wade for the month?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaSeba5
I remember the old days when I used to argue for Wade being right there with LeBron and Kobe, and where they were all the top 3 players in the league. Wade has always seemed to be an under the radar guy, but it's probably because Miami used to be an indifferent team that nobody really talked about. Wade didn't have the hype of LeBron, or the credit of being on an elite franchise like the Lakers.



He didn't have the hype, so it was inconsistent. We saw him grow. Then Shaq showed up in Miami and overshadowed him. Then he was the MVP (over Nash) until he got hurt in 2007. Missed half of that season and the playoffs and missed half of the next year and didn't make the playoffs. In that time, James got to the Finals with that ridiculous run against the Pistons, Kobe was going Kobe, and people forgot about Wade.


When people were arguing in 2009 about who should be MVP, I couldn't hear the end of LeBron getting over 100 steals and almost 100 blocks, averaging over 1 of each a game for the season (1.7SPG and 1.1BPG). Wade played two fewer games and had over 150 steals and over 100 blocks, averaging 2.2SPG and 1.3BPG. He became the only guard other than Jordan (I think) to have over 150 steals and 100 blocks, averaging over 2 steals and over 1 block. So they were giving LeBron credit for doing something that Wade did better.


Yes, Wade is overlooked.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:59 AM   #45
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Default Re: So how about Dwyane Wade for the month?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
He didn't have the hype, so it was inconsistent. We saw him grow. Then Shaq showed up in Miami and overshadowed him. Then he was the MVP (over Nash) until he got hurt in 2007. Missed half of that season and the playoffs and missed half of the next year and didn't make the playoffs. In that time, James got to the Finals with that ridiculous run against the Pistons, Kobe was going Kobe, and people forgot about Wade.


When people were arguing in 2009 about who should be MVP, I couldn't hear the end of LeBron getting over 100 steals and almost 100 blocks, averaging over 1 of each a game for the season (1.7SPG and 1.1BPG). Wade played two fewer games and had over 150 steals and over 100 blocks, averaging 2.2SPG and 1.3BPG. He became the only guard other than Jordan (I think) to have over 150 steals and 100 blocks, averaging over 2 steals and over 1 block. So they were giving LeBron credit for doing something that Wade did better.


Yes, Wade is overlooked.

Agreed with everything you said, and repped.
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