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Old 02-24-2013, 05:53 AM   #16
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Default Re: Why are there no truly good centers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmd
What rule changes and how does it affect the game?

Based on your avatar you are a Rockets fan I see...so you probably are old enough to know about Yao Ming.

When they got rid of the illegal defense rule is meant that help defense didn't have to travel so far to double team somebody. At the time people thought it was a rule directed at Shaq because it even though he won titles after the rule change it changed his personal production big. It means that you can now double team somebody even if they dont have the ball. Before the change, the help defenders were required to stay with their man and wait until Shaq got the ball until the 2nd guy came over to help.

What it means is that for centers to be effective today, you need to have more of a shot than before. Shaq's field goal attempts dropped drastically after the rule change because he was doubled before the ball even got to him. In turn, it means that somebody else was open so centers could still make things happen if they had passing skills. Combine that with the fact that it became illegal to play defense in the paint for more than 2.9 seconds, they stopped calling moving screens, they changed the way they enforced the hand check and there you have a formula to make it easy for people like Rose, Westbrook, JJ Barea etc. to look like super stars. I knew many people who said the Lakers wouldn't win another title because of the change because it effected Shaq's offense so drastically. They were wrong but then again Shaq was an excellent passer who was always willingly looking to find the open guy.

It's part of the reason why Dwight would have those games in Orlando when he played 40 minutes and only had 3 FG attempts total. That wouldn't happen with the old rules because the help would wouldn't be there until a second later and one second of movement makes a huge difference on defense.

Honestly, a player like Rik Smits or a younger healthy Illgaukas would likely be first team all NBA a few times and players like Westbrook would not be stars if it wasn't illegal to sit in the paint.

If you want to get an idea, youtube footage of older games, like in the 90's where the paint was crowded, sometimes with 6 or more players inside there at a time. Today you can take a screen shot and fine NOT ONE player in the paint.

The rules are drastically different and meant to make more perimeter stars.

Outside of the rule changes, you also have kids growing up practicing how to be a wing player because that's what's cool and what makes the money. Skill sets are different. It would have been interesting to see what kind of damage a prime Yao could have done if defenses weren't allowed to cheat before he got the ball.

I really wish I saved my older posts like this because I've literally typed something similar to this out at least once a year for the last 6 years on this forum.

Last edited by Force : 02-24-2013 at 05:55 AM.
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Old 02-24-2013, 07:17 AM   #17
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Default Re: Why are there no truly good centers today?

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Old 02-24-2013, 07:48 AM   #18
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Default Re: Why are there no truly good centers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Force
Based on your avatar you are a Rockets fan I see...so you probably are old enough to know about Yao Ming.

When they got rid of the illegal defense rule is meant that help defense didn't have to travel so far to double team somebody. At the time people thought it was a rule directed at Shaq because it even though he won titles after the rule change it changed his personal production big. It means that you can now double team somebody even if they dont have the ball. Before the change, the help defenders were required to stay with their man and wait until Shaq got the ball until the 2nd guy came over to help.

What it means is that for centers to be effective today, you need to have more of a shot than before. Shaq's field goal attempts dropped drastically after the rule change because he was doubled before the ball even got to him. In turn, it means that somebody else was open so centers could still make things happen if they had passing skills. Combine that with the fact that it became illegal to play defense in the paint for more than 2.9 seconds, they stopped calling moving screens, they changed the way they enforced the hand check and there you have a formula to make it easy for people like Rose, Westbrook, JJ Barea etc. to look like super stars. I knew many people who said the Lakers wouldn't win another title because of the change because it effected Shaq's offense so drastically. They were wrong but then again Shaq was an excellent passer who was always willingly looking to find the open guy.

It's part of the reason why Dwight would have those games in Orlando when he played 40 minutes and only had 3 FG attempts total. That wouldn't happen with the old rules because the help would wouldn't be there until a second later and one second of movement makes a huge difference on defense.

Honestly, a player like Rik Smits or a younger healthy Illgaukas would likely be first team all NBA a few times and players like Westbrook would not be stars if it wasn't illegal to sit in the paint.

If you want to get an idea, youtube footage of older games, like in the 90's where the paint was crowded, sometimes with 6 or more players inside there at a time. Today you can take a screen shot and fine NOT ONE player in the paint.

The rules are drastically different and meant to make more perimeter stars.

Outside of the rule changes, you also have kids growing up practicing how to be a wing player because that's what's cool and what makes the money. Skill sets are different. It would have been interesting to see what kind of damage a prime Yao could have done if defenses weren't allowed to cheat before he got the ball.

I really wish I saved my older posts like this because I've literally typed something similar to this out at least once a year for the last 6 years on this forum.

Brilliant post.
Thats why a quality big man with good post skills feels so refreshing after seeing all "deandres" getting deals like their elite big man. Thats why I am following Donatas Motiejunas, who is quite soft physically, but extremely talented on low block.
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:14 AM   #19
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Default Re: Why are there no truly good centers today?

You should probably take a look at this draft class Isaiah Austin, Rudy Gobert, Cauley-Stein, and Alex Len are probably all legit 7 footers and all of them move very well. Austin in particular has a Lamarcus Aldridge and Marc Gasol feel to him offensively.
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:15 AM   #20
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Default Re: Why are there no truly good centers today?

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Originally Posted by Zodiac
You should probably take a look at this draft class Isaiah Austin, Rudy Gobert, Cauley-Stein, and Alex Len are probably all legit 7 footers and all of them move very well. Austin in particular has a Lamarcus Aldridge and Marc Gasol feel to him offensively.

I seen quiet a bit of Cauley-Stein hopefully he stays 1-2 more years in college hes raw as hell with potential.
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:16 AM   #21
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Default Re: Why are there no truly good centers today?

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Originally Posted by bmd
I don't understand why.

There has got to be at least 1 7-footer in the entire world who can be a superstar center.

MARC GASOL is the best by default because there is nobody else.

fixed it for you
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:25 AM   #22
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Default Re: Why are there no truly good centers today?

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Originally Posted by andremiller07
I seen quiet a bit of Cauley-Stein hopefully he stays 1-2 more years in college hes raw as hell with potential.
Watch Austin, he's skinny as hell like Anthony Davis and was also a former PG

7'1 and he can knock down contested jumpers and hits threes, finishes in the post with either hand. Very raw defensively though
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:27 AM   #23
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Default Re: Why are there no truly good centers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zodiac
Watch Austin, he's skinny as hell like Anthony Davis and was also a former PG

7'1 and he can knock down contested jumpers and hits threes, finishes in the post with either hand. Very raw defensively though

Hes the one from Baylor with the googels and comes off the bench right? I seen a few of his games still needs a bit of work but will be good no doubt.
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:33 AM   #24
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Default Re: Why are there no truly good centers today?

if only greg oden is healthy :)
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:37 AM   #25
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Default Re: Why are there no truly good centers today?

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Hes the one from Baylor with the googels and comes off the bench right? I seen a few of his games still needs a bit of work but will be good no doubt.
Yep, his offensive skill set is awesome for a young big.
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:51 AM   #26
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Default Re: Why are there no truly good centers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmd
I don't understand why.

There has got to be at least 1 7-footer in the entire world who can be a superstar center.

Dwight is the best by default because there is nobody else.


Dhoward was a superstar center but he isn't at his best. At his best he got his team to the finals and went thru Lebron to do it.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:17 PM   #27
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Default Re: Why are there no truly good centers today?

Teams have become enough to realize that unless you have Shaq/Kareem/peak Hakeem, running your offense through your big isn't the most optimal strategy, which is why you see so many examples throughout history of offenses becoming better when they move from away using their big as their primary source. Spurs with Duncan, Ewing with the Knicks, Wilt's entire career...saw the same thing with the Lakers and Bynum. Their offense steadily declined as Bynum's role grew larger and larger...
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:16 PM   #28
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Default Re: Why are there no truly good centers today?

Dwight was a truly good center before the back surgery, but in general there are a lot of reasons which have been mentioned in this thread.

Most importantly, there are only a few guys in each generation that have the potential to be franchise centers. There aren't many people around 7 feet tall, much less 7 footers who are healthy and coordinated enough to play in the NBA. And an even smaller percentage of those 7 footers has enough talent to stand out from the average big man. And 7 footers are also more prone to injuries so the ones with the ability may not even get a chance to show it.

The centers who had a chance in Howard's era were Yao and Oden. We know what happened to both of them. Bynum also has the talent, but he can't stay healthy. If you had those 3 healthy and Dwight without the back surgery, nobody would be saying the league lacks great centers.

Imagine if Hakeem and Ewing struggled with injuries like these players. Nobody would be talking about their era as having had so many great centers if those 2 had been injured.

We've seen another injury to a promising young center in Andre Drummond. Hopefully it doesn't continue. Cousins also has a ton of potential, but it appears doubtful that he'll ever get his head on straight.

I agree that it also starts early with fewer big men wanting to play center, and more of them growing up with KG as their idol. They seem to develop their perimeter skills more than their post games.

And the rule changes are a factor, they certainly discourage interior play, but that won't prevent centers from being stars. See Howard before the back injury, Yao when he was healthy, Bynum during the stretches he's been healthy and a guy like Oden certainly had the ability, and was showing flashes before the last injury.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacks3
Teams have become enough to realize that unless you have Shaq/Kareem/peak Hakeem, running your offense through your big isn't the most optimal strategy, which is why you see so many examples throughout history of offenses becoming better when they move from away using their big as their primary source. Spurs with Duncan, Ewing with the Knicks, Wilt's entire career...saw the same thing with the Lakers and Bynum. Their offense steadily declined as Bynum's role grew larger and larger...

When did the Knicks become better offensively when they moved away from Ewing as the first option? The Houston/Sprewell teams weren't good offensively.

Wilt's '67 Sixers still ran the offense through him as well, he just wasn't scoring nearly as much.
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