Why not? His impact was great. He's played enough years. It's not like he's injured as much as people suggest. He's even better in the playoffs. Tho I would put Richmond ahead of him.
Because he was a career 6th man. I'm not putting ANY career 6th man on a top ten position list of all-time. It would be absurd.
And accomplishments aside, which can be MAINLY attributed to Duncan and Tony Parker ... I have seen other players with better games, who produced under greater pressure as franchise corner stones of their squads.
Off pure game, or peak alone I'd have
T-Mac
Vince Carter
Mitch Richmond
Brandon Roy (pre-injury)
Penny Hardaway (pre-injury)
Joe Johnson (poor man's McGrady)
Off accomplishments and game, and actual relative in the hierarchy of importantness to his team's success, I'd take Joe Dumars over Ginobili, too. There is others if I take the time to think.
The knob slobbing of Manu Ginobili on ISH has ALWAYS bothered me. The only other logical person in my corner for this that I've seen is KBlaze.
Duncan over Barkley, the 3-5 spots of the PF position change for me too.
Bill Walton should be in the Top 10 Centers.
Pippen should go to 7th. Baylor, Erving, and then Hondo in that order.
Ray Allen over Reggie Miller. Drexler and Iverson could swap places, IMO. Sam Jones over Manu Ginobilli. I don't even think Manu is over Hal Greer, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, etc...
You seem to value winning over all other things, as opposed to compiling everything and rating players, as suggested in the OP.
Regardless, neither Ray nor Reggie shot 50% for their career. Career shooting numbers for both, using correct rounding:
Reggie -- 47/40/89
Ray -- 45/40/89
I think we can agree that those are so similar that it's not worth choosing one as better than the other.
In terms of career totals, Reggie has a noticeable lead in steals (100-200), and that's only noticeable because, at this stage of Ray's career, I don't see him getting those remaining totals. But it is possible.
Ray dominated the boards relative to Reggie, already passed him in career assists, career 3's, and should pass Reggie's point total. It should also be noted that Reggie has almost 200 more career games than Ray, and Ray either ties, or beats, Reggie in Per36min points, rebs, assts, steals.
In terms of Playoff Per36min... Reggie has more points, but Ray beats him in rebs, and assts, while also having a miniscule (not even worth mentioning) lead in steals.
Neither was a strong defender, so that's not a point to argue in either direction.
If you want to care about winning, then Ray has a title and Reggie does not. I did just notice that Reggie has a significantly better "Win Share" (wtf that is) but I don't place much stock in something that sounds so subjective.
I'm not putting stock into actually winning. I put stock into Manu because of how much impact he had in winning. I have Grant Hill on my list. It's hard to suggest I'm basing this on winning. I have Duncan #2.
Ray was more all-around. He was a much better rebounder and playmaker. I think Reggie was an equal scorer and better overall offensive player. I take Reggie's defense over Ray's, because I think he was a much better team defender. His intelligence and off-ball play is elite. He had more impact than Ray had. Reggie averaged 12 PPG his last 3 years. It brought his average down. At his height, his PPG were more or less even with Ray's and he still did most of it as an off-ball player. Some would conclude that that makes Ray better and I would not. Ray's averages were down in Boston, to be fair to him. He was doing the Reggie thing he was well below in averages. Ray's stats will probably continue to fall a bit. Right now he averages 1.4PPG less than Reggie did and per 36 he averages 0.3PPG more than Reggie.
Stats don't much separate them. I take Reggie because I think he was better.
Because he was a career 6th man. I'm not putting ANY career 6th man on a top ten position list of all-time. It would be absurd.
And accomplishments aside, which can be MAINLY attributed to Duncan and Tony Parker ... I have seen other players with better games, who produced under greater pressure as franchise corner stones of their squads.
Off pure game, or peak alone I'd have
T-Mac
Vince Carter
Mitch Richmond
Brandon Roy (pre-injury)
Penny Hardaway (pre-injury)
Joe Johnson (poor man's McGrady)
Off accomplishments and game, and actual relative in the hierarchy of importantness to his team's success, I'd take Joe Dumars over Ginobili, too. There is others if I take the time to think.
The knob slobbing of Manu Ginobili on ISH has ALWAYS bothered me. The only other logical person in my corner for this that I've seen is KBlaze.
So you're not listing McHale as a top 10 PF? He started 400 of his career 971 games.
Manu has started more games than he's played off the bench.
That's ridiculous, on Parker. Ginobili was a better player on most of those teams. Certainly had the higher peak (at least prior this year) and even if you prefer Parker, you cannot separate the two like that.
McGrady is great but he does not have the career that Ginobili has. Vince Carter had the great peak and does have a great career but, just like McGrady, he is not a better career player than Ginobili. I already said Mitch Richmond. I just forgot him. Roy has the peak argument, mostly because Ginobili has been leashed on San Antonio. But I have no problem arguing his peak over Manu's...I don't think we ever got to see Roy reach his absolute peak tho...but for career, no argument. He can't be ahead of Manu.
Hardaway is a PG. He was not a better SG than Manu was. That wasn't his position. He's a PG thru and thru. And he's not a better career player...which is a shame, cuz I think he'd probably be the #2 PG all-time right now, had he not gotten hurt.
Joe Johnson
That's not allowed. Seriously. Don't say that.
Last edited by Whoah10115 : 02-15-2013 at 04:04 PM.
Because you think he's better.. that's fine. I can't argue with that. They're close, and I'd flip them, but to each their own I guess, so long as you're aware of the arguments against Reggie being better.
But I still want to hear an argument for Hill being in the top 10 list, lol.
It's all in the title...who are the top 10 players per position, in NBA history. Not peak, prime, or just a list of accomplishments. Who deserves to be ranked where?
Just to clarify, is this about players or careers ?
Bird was one of my favorite players of all time, but to be fair Bird had his "choking" moments in various series in playoffs aswell, including one of his NBA Finals:
Game 1 - 18 pts
Game 2 - 19 pts
Game 3 - 8 pts
Game 4 - 8 pts
Game 5 - 12 pts
Kindof makes Lebrons worst Finals look very impressive....
Every player has underperformed in a series in a playoffs, every player in NBA history... yes, even Michael Jordan, he used to take ALOT of shots and still get his points, but that doesnt mean he would not shoot bad and/or make a bad decision and/or turnover and so on....
Even the "greatest clutch shooter of all time" (Reggie) has underperformed in that exact department.... viciously....
Are Those Bird`s 1981 Stat Finals? You Forgot 15.3 RPG, 7.0 APG, 2.3 APG and Played Great D. Those Are Great All Around Numbers. Scoring Is Not The Only Thing.
I wasn't offering my lists as definitive or just asking for feedback...feel free to post some of yours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7
Duncan over Barkley, the 3-5 spots of the PF position change for me too.
Bill Walton should be in the Top 10 Centers.
Pippen should go to 7th. Baylor, Erving, and then Hondo in that order.
Ray Allen over Reggie Miller. Drexler and Iverson could swap places, IMO. Sam Jones over Manu Ginobilli. I don't even think Manu is over Hal Greer, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, etc...
Chris Paul should be in the Top 10 PG's.
I can respect that...tho I have a hard time understanding Dirk ahead of any of those 4 guys.
Bill Walton didn't play nearly enough games. He has the peak but that's not enough. He missed way too much time.
Hal Greer should be ahead of Carter and McGrady. I can't argue either of the latter ahead of career Manu. But I'd like to hear why you'd switch Drexler and AI, Reggie and Ray.
IMO, you under-rate Parker and Duncan and overate Manu.
While Manu is very versatile and has more "skills" than Parker, no way has he contributed to the team as Parker does. Parker has pretty much carried the team offensively for the better part of 2-3 years. Manu is (it seems) forever injured or coming back from injury. Don't get me wrong, for a big-time, crunch situation, there's not many I'd take over Manu but those few moments don't over-ride the night in, night out, consistent production from Parker. Also, Parker is a 5-time All-star, and has one 2nd team and one 3rd team all-nba honors. Manu - only 2 times an All-Star and 2 times on the 3rd team all-nba. Parker has also been in the conversation for MVP - Manu never at that level.
Even Barkley says Duncan is the best power forward ever. Except for peak play, I don't see how Barkley could be considered better - certainly not in the winning, defense or longevity categories.
Barkley/Duncan
1 MVP/2 MVPs
0 FMVPs/3 FMVPs
0 rings/4 rings
11 All-Star/14 All-Star
5 1st team all-nba/9 1st team all-nba
5 2nd team all-nba/3 2nd team all-nba
1 3rd team/1 3rd team
0 all-defensive team/8 1st all-defensive, 5 2nd all-defensive
Re: Top 10 Players Ever By Position
