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Old 02-15-2013, 02:53 PM   #16
La Frescobaldi
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Default Re: Top 10 Players Ever By Position

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Originally Posted by Young X
CP3 is better than any PG on that list not named Magic or Oscar.
no he ain't not at all
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Old 02-15-2013, 02:55 PM   #17
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Default Re: Top 10 Players Ever By Position

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Originally Posted by Whoah10115
After posting I looked back and started wondering about the lists. Manu is deserving but he's missed enough games and has played few enough minutes that it's right for me to consider a couple other guys. Bing was on my mind, but the guy I forgot was Hal Greer. He's got 20,000 points. It's the total that sways my mind. I might have to throw him in there.



Dolph Schayes and Jerry Lucas deserve mention in the PF list...I'd have to drop DeBusschere.
Jerry Lucas > Dave DeBusschere in college.
Jerry Lucas < Dave DeBusschere in the NBA.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:08 PM   #18
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Default Re: Top 10 Players Ever By Position

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
I

10. Grant Hill (Point 1)


8. Reggie Miller (p2)
9. Ray Allen
10. Manu Ginobili (p3)



1) wtf?

2) In what way is Reggie better than Ray?

3) wtf? I see you have alluded to Manu maybe not being on your final list, but still.. wtf?
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:13 PM   #19
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Default Re: Top 10 Players Ever By Position

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Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi
good thing we're buds OP cuz that right there is a throwdown for sure. I.... well that's all I can say. I'm red-faced choked up with rage and sputterin

And another thing. Hakeem is not better than Shaquille O'Neal. I don't care about that season or two that he had he was not better than the Diesel. Olajuwon's peak is not higher than Shaq and it didn't last as long and that's just a reality that you know to be true.

I think you do it just to create fury


On Wilt and Russell, this is only something I started thinking last week. It randomly crossed my mind when I wasn't thinking of anything. I could switch up those 2 at any time and I could switch 3 and 4, looking back. Not saying I'm certain of that, but it's in my head.


But I'll never begin to agree with you on O'Neal and Olajuwon. Hakeem was such a greater defender that it's really pretty obvious for me. Add to that, Hakeem was the better rebounder. Especially when you consider that he did everything on defense, including contesting every shot every put up. He still got back to rebound even had higher rebound numbers than Shaq.


What a lot of people say about Kevin Love, ignoring defensive rotations and contesting shots, I say you could say about Shaq. He was a terrific shot-blocker but he didn't challenge all that much, especially considering how lazy he was on defense.


And while I respect the hell out of ShaqAttack, there isn't a player in the history of basketball that got away with nearly as much as O'Neal got. Much more than any fouls he suffered. He lived inside of a constant offensive foul. He'd establish his position and concluded that that gave him the right to turn as he pleased, as if the guys behind him hadn't also established position. I'm not even thinking of charges the way he backed down, which was often a foul...I'm talking about the way he turned. Just like Durant this last month, getting foul calls for anything, there is no way to defend him if they ref the game that way.


Hakeem's impact went beyond the stats. Hakeem wreaked havoc on offense, screwing up rotations. Shaq was as good a passer and was never a black hole. Olajuwon was early on and it would come up every now and then, until he reached his 3 year peak. But I think he's the better offensive player, he's the better rebonder, he's the smarter player, the more all-around player. Even if O'Neal is the better overall player (which I certainly don't believe), Hakeem's defense is on another level. I'd take peak David Robinson over Shaq too.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:15 PM   #20
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Default Re: Top 10 Players Ever By Position

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
And while I respect the hell out of ShaqAttack, there isn't a player in the history of basketball that got away with nearly as much as O'Neal got. Much more than any fouls he suffered. He lived inside of a constant offensive foul. He'd establish his position and concluded that that gave him the right to turn as he pleased, as if the guys behind him hadn't also established position. I'm not even thinking of charges the way he backed down, which was often a foul...I'm talking about the way he turned. Just like Durant this last month, getting foul calls for anything, there is no way to defend him if they ref the game that way.

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Old 02-15-2013, 03:27 PM   #21
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Default Re: Top 10 Players Ever By Position

O lawd
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:28 PM   #22
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Default Re: Top 10 Players Ever By Position

LMAO @ Manu Ginobili being a top ten SG of all-time.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:28 PM   #23
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Default Re: Top 10 Players Ever By Position

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Originally Posted by kshutts1
1) wtf?

2) In what way is Reggie better than Ray?

3) wtf? I see you have alluded to Manu maybe not being on your final list, but still.. wtf?


Grant just makes it, and it's completely fair. Grant played 7 legit all-star seasons. 7. 6 legitimate All-NBA seasons. 5 legitimate elite seasons. Plus, he contributed as a very good player to a few Phoenix teams. His overall stats aren't nearly what they should be, but they're still strong in both totals and averages. In his prime he's one of the better rebounding SF's ever and one of the absolute best ball-handlers, passers, playmakers and all-around players to play the position. He's done enough that he better be in the Hall-of-Fame. If he was hurt throughout the early part of his career and came back to do what he did then he there wouldn't be many issues with his selection. At his peak, there aren't many better. Guy was a legit top 5 player in his prime and his prime is not that short. The only real argument against him is that he never got his team out of the 1st round in those years. Watching, he did everything to make everyone better and he played well enough. But that's an argument I'd hear.


Manu's play in the posteason is better than a lot of guys. Even in terms of total points, he's comparable to some other guys. He's well below Bing in terms of career totals and in averages (not over 36 but overall), but he's got 5 times as many points and had better career averages in the playoffs. Bill Sharman doesn't have much greater totals. He has higher averages and his playoff totals are lower. I also think Manu had more overall impact. Joe Dumars is often on these lists, but Dumars is not as good as Manu. His average isn't much higher, with Manu having better all-around averages. He has 6,000 more points than Manu and that means something, tho Manu averages a good amount more per 36 and he has more points in the playoffs and better averages in the playoffs. Pete Maravich was great, overall, I'll admit. But his stats are definitely a lot better than his actual game. And he did nothing in the playoffs, often not getting there. Sam Jones is not as good, from all that I've seen. Monroe had a great peak but Manu did more and Monroe just didn't have the career that Manu has had. Especially not in the playoffs.


A guy I forgot to consider was Moncrief...and I'm still not sure if he makes it ahead of Manu, but I'm ashamed I forgot him.



But I will drop Manu...because I forgot Mitch Richmond...who makes it ahead of Ray. I won't put him ahead of Reggie (at least not right now), because Reggie did more in the playoffs, when Mitch didn't quite get there. I could even argue Reggie higher than he is. Look at stats and tell me how much better Ray is than Reggie. Reggie played in the system and lived playing off the ball. He's averaged 24.6PPG and did it on over 50% from the field and over 40% from 3. He made the playoffs doing it. He was at 22.6 the next year and made the playoffs again. He averaged over 20 four years in a row and six times in total. Three times he was within a half point of 20. He didn't do it in a lot of minutes either. They're very close in per 36 stats, tho Ray has him beat by a point and change overall. He averaged nearly a point and a half per shot thru his career. He was better in the playoffs, by a good deal. Ray might have had more game, in a vacuum, but Reggie did more. He was better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Money 23
LMAO @ Manu Ginobili being a top ten SG of all-time.


Why not? His impact was great. He's played enough years. It's not like he's injured as much as people suggest. He's even better in the playoffs. Tho I would put Richmond ahead of him.

Last edited by Whoah10115 : 02-15-2013 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:30 PM   #24
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Default Re: Top 10 Players Ever By Position

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Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi
no he ain't not at all
Yes he is.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:32 PM   #25
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Default Re: Top 10 Players Ever By Position

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Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi
no he ain't not at all
Yes he absolutely is ... he's what Iverson should've been, sans Ivo's insane athletic ability and quickness.

He's the best combination of Nash, Kidd, and Iverson. A junior mints, evolutionary version of Isiah Thomas. He's a great leader, is intelligent, can think the game out, great feel, clutch, big time player, who can play great on ball defense.

For my money he's the best PG I've actually ever seen (caught Magic for like a season)
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:36 PM   #26
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Default Re: Top 10 Players Ever By Position

Quote:
Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi
Jerry Lucas > Dave DeBusschere in college.
Jerry Lucas < Dave DeBusschere in the NBA.


Yea I'm looking at it. Schayes is the first guy I thought of and is worth considering...Elvin Hayes is an interesting one, because he was a stat-padder. But I guess he contributed enough.


Hard to do the PF's.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:37 PM   #27
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Default Re: Top 10 Players Ever By Position

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Originally Posted by Mr. Jabbar
He already choked so he can't pass Bird at all.

Bird was one of my favorite players of all time, but to be fair Bird had his "choking" moments in various series in playoffs aswell, including one of his NBA Finals:

Game 1 - 18 pts
Game 2 - 19 pts
Game 3 - 8 pts
Game 4 - 8 pts
Game 5 - 12 pts

Kindof makes Lebrons worst Finals look very impressive....

Every player has underperformed in a series in a playoffs, every player in NBA history... yes, even Michael Jordan, he used to take ALOT of shots and still get his points, but that doesnt mean he would not shoot bad and/or make a bad decision and/or turnover and so on....

Even the "greatest clutch shooter of all time" (Reggie) has underperformed in that exact department.... viciously....

Last edited by pauk : 02-15-2013 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:37 PM   #28
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Default Re: Top 10 Players Ever By Position

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Originally Posted by Mr. Jabbar
He already choked so he can't pass Bird at all.

Oh he can and will finish as the #1 SF and top 5 player all time.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:39 PM   #29
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Default Re: Top 10 Players Ever By Position

Quote:
Originally Posted by Money 23
Yes he absolutely is ... he's what Iverson should've been, sans Ivo's insane athletic ability and quickness.

He's the best combination of Nash, Kidd, and Iverson. A junior mints, evolutionary version of Isiah Thomas. He's a great leader, is intelligent, can think the game out, great feel, clutch, big time player, who can play great on ball defense.

For my money he's the best PG I've actually ever seen (caught Magic for like a season)



I don't really argue that, tho overall it's justifiable not to list him. The only guy he has a legitimate argument over is Kevin Johnson. It's still very early for him. His peak isn't way ahead of Kidd, Nash, Payton, Stockton. And he certainly hasn't done more than any of them have done.


And absolutely no on Iverson. Iverson was a SG. He shouldn't have been Chris Paul. Chris Paul is a pure PG and Iverson was a pure scorer who was short and had great handles. There is no way Iverson should have been Paul.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:40 PM   #30
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Default Re: Top 10 Players Ever By Position

You seem to value winning over all other things, as opposed to compiling everything and rating players, as suggested in the OP.

Regardless, neither Ray nor Reggie shot 50% for their career. Career shooting numbers for both, using correct rounding:
Reggie -- 47/40/89
Ray -- 45/40/89
I think we can agree that those are so similar that it's not worth choosing one as better than the other.

In terms of career totals, Reggie has a noticeable lead in steals (100-200), and that's only noticeable because, at this stage of Ray's career, I don't see him getting those remaining totals. But it is possible.
Ray dominated the boards relative to Reggie, already passed him in career assists, career 3's, and should pass Reggie's point total. It should also be noted that Reggie has almost 200 more career games than Ray, and Ray either ties, or beats, Reggie in Per36min points, rebs, assts, steals.
In terms of Playoff Per36min... Reggie has more points, but Ray beats him in rebs, and assts, while also having a miniscule (not even worth mentioning) lead in steals.

Neither was a strong defender, so that's not a point to argue in either direction.

If you want to care about winning, then Ray has a title and Reggie does not. I did just notice that Reggie has a significantly better "Win Share" (wtf that is) but I don't place much stock in something that sounds so subjective.
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