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Old 02-13-2013, 09:05 PM   #61
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darius
hah funny to watch that video.

The main thing that came to mind watching it was:

"No one in that game any idea how to guard Griffin."

People severely underestimate how much it inhibits players once teams start game planning for them. If teams still played Griffin in that clueless way he'd be dropping 30 a night.

Players improve but defenses improve with them so sometimes it looks like they are less effective stats-wise but they are putting more and more pressure on the defense.

I think Griffin is especially affected by this bc of the spectacular nature of his game. Guys are hyper-aware of him because they don't want to get embarrassed.


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Old 02-13-2013, 09:42 PM   #62
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
I was trying to reason with you.. but since you want to boxscore watch I guess I'm going to have to educate you a bit more. I don't think you understand what playing 6 minutes less per game on a MUCH more talented team does to numbers. Nonetheless I'll post some great games he's had. For the first month or so of the season he was banged up with a few injuries but after that he really picked it up.


Nov 17th vs the Bulls: 26 points, 10 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals and a block in only 33 minutes of play.


Dec 3rd vs the Jazz: 30 points, 11 rebounds, 1 steal in 37 minutes of play.


Dec 8th vs the Suns: 24 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 steals, 1 block in only 29 minutes.


Dec 23rd vs the Suns: 23 points, 11 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 steals, 1 block in 31 minutes.


Jan 4th vs the Lakers: 24 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal in only 29 minutes.


Jan 5th vs the Warriors: 20 points, 5 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 steals in just 30 minutes.


Jan 12th vs the Magic: 30 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 block in 35 minutes.


Jan 21st vs the Warriors: 26 points, 13 rebounds, 8 assists, 3 steals, 1 block in 41 minutes.


Jan 22nd vs the Thunder: 31 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals and a block in 36 minutes.


Jan 26th vs the Blazers: 24 points, 8 rebounds, 10 assists, 4 steals in 38 minutes.


Jan 27th vs the Blazers: 23 points, 6 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals in just 28 minutes.


Jan 30th vs the Wolves: 26 points, 13 rebounds, 3 steals in 36 minutes.


Feb 3rd vs the Celtics: 20 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists in 36 minutes.


Feb 11th vs the Sixers: 20 points, 9 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 steal in just 28 minutes.



Notice anything? Sure not as many 30 point games but way more balance with big steals numbers and all around stats in LESS minutes. To get those 30+ point games often his rookie year Blake was logging over 38 minutes a game, 7th most in the NBA if I recall. Now that we got that out of the way let me pick apart your other points.


1. Blake does rebound and his PER 36 rebound rate is over 10 which is fine for a PF playing on a team with guys like Odom and DJ who have very good rebound rates. Not to mention Turiaf and Hollins are good per minute rebounders this year.


2. His guards are among the best and all of them are ball dominant guards who either A. take a lot of shots or B. handle the ball a ton. When Billups and CP3 were both out Blake put up better stats than ever before in his career for about a two week stretch.


3. Chris Paul is FAR from the best set up guard in terms of lobs. Baron Davis threw him twice the lobs and Chris Paul often is afraid to throw lobs for fear of a turnover. He CONSTANTLY misses Blake on the spin lob.


4. Blake's motor is still high but as he's matured he's learned to tone it down. Not to mention his rookie year he put ZERO energy into defense, now he puts nearly as much into it as offense so not sure what the aggression comment is based on besides you watching him maybe 5 times.


5. This comment about him fouling more often is actually in direct contradiction to your previous comment that his aggression is down. The reason his fouls are up is because he actually plays good defense now and is MORE aggressive. Who would have thought .


6. FT shooting is actually significantly better. Again I can tell you're boxscore watching because you're looking at total percentage rather than the deeper story here. Beyond that a jump of over 1 percent and climbing is worth noting and still counts. He shot 70 percent in January for the entire month and has been very reliable from the line lately compared to previous seasons.


7. You really wanted to bring up 3 point shooting bro? He's pretty much only ever attempted 3's as a bailout with the clock expiring. Anything he hits or misses has primarily been luck because that's not a shot he normally takes. Sample size is too small and even if he is somehow a worse three point shooter, it doesn't matter for a PF who never attempts them. What's more important is he's become a decently reliable MIDRANGE shooter.


8. No superstars or perennial all stars in the NBA that aren't old play less minutes than Griffin or CP3. EVERYBODY else plays heavier minutes than these two and every top 15 player in the NBA regularly hits 38+ minutes, these guys rarely do. So no the reduced minutes isn't an excuse, it's a fact.


9. So because he's not going to get elected to an all NBA defensive team this year it means his defensive improvement is negligible? Bro I don't think you understand he's not just marginally better defensively. He's went from atrocious, invisible defender to "very solid" or "good" one in just two seasons.


If you need any other education on Clippers players let me know. The only thing I ask is PLEASE don't base such strong opinions on your limited viewing and then right paragraphs ripping a player with false shit.
good post
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:29 PM   #63
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Very solid comparison, I did not pay much attention to Tyreke before but now I am astonished at the similarity between him and Blake Griffin. Both have been declining rapidly after peaking at their rookie seasons. Blake Griffin is fast declining at a rate of 2ppg, 2rpg each season, Tyreke is more unpredictable though.
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Old 02-14-2013, 12:04 AM   #64
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

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Very solid comparison, I did not pay much attention to Tyreke before but now I am astonished at the similarity between him and Blake Griffin. Both have been declining rapidly after peaking at their rookie seasons. Blake Griffin is fast declining at a rate of 2ppg, 2rpg each season, Tyreke is more unpredictable though.

OH NO IN 4 YEARS HE'LL SCORE 10 POINTS AND 0 REBOUNDS! In 15 minutes
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Old 02-14-2013, 03:11 AM   #65
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
Blake came in blazing on a team that won 32 games (only won that much because of a dominant January) and he was unknown to opposing teams. It's common sense that teams after 2.5 years will learn how to defend him more efficiently.
While scouting reports figure a player out, the stars spend their first three years getting and improving on the previous year. Non stars fade back. Dwight wasn't that polished his second and third year but he improved and got more productive each year.
Quote:
That being said his minutes adjusted numbers aren't far off his previous years and his actual skill set is significantly better. Once we shed the dead weight of ball hogs like Butler and Blake continues developing watch his game take off. 2.5 seasons isn't enough to throw in the towel on a big man who's been a deserving all star every single year.


Blake is exciting and he's got on the allstar team on that bases and injuries this year.

Duncan and David Lee do everything better than Blake and more ingrained to their teams.

If Dirk was healthy he too would be ahead of Blake. As would a healthy Kevin Love who is way more active and means more to his team's success.

Those on the same level:

A healthy Gasol is usually a more productive player and is definitely more polished which is what you call better. He's a better offensive player overall, post player, rebounder and defensive player,

Aldridge does everything well and is a better post defender

Zach Randolph is in the argument.

I will say an aggressive Blake has the potential to be better than all of them but as of now, his exciting play from his rookie year is getting him in favor.
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Old 02-14-2013, 03:44 AM   #66
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Dirk's putting up 14 and 6 this year.. healthy or not he's declining and has no case. Duncan is a center first off, second off he did play well enough to get in but he isn't as much better than Griffin as you're making it seem. 17/10/3/3 vs 18.5, 8.5, 3.5,1.5.

Spurs and Clippers both have a top 3 record in the league. David Lee is NOT better than Blake Griffin and has a much lower impact. He's got nicer offensive numbers than Blake but he's a pretty terrible defender, plays more minutes and plays on a far worse team. Aldridge is on a team that's barely hanging onto the 8 seed and again isn't a better individual player than Blake despite more minutes and a bigger role giving him better stats. Love may be better but didn't play hardly at all this year, so it's idiotic to play the what if game. Zbo has zero case over Blake this year or any year of Blake's career.

Basically Blake is the 2nd best all around PF in the league after a healthy Love. Couple guys have a little better stats but on a per minute basis, efficiency factored and minutes factored Blake is a cream of the crop PF this year. Next year he's going to be even better. Blake Griffin is no doubt the most exciting and all star games are all about this and popularity but he's deserving nonetheless.
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Old 02-14-2013, 03:40 PM   #67
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

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Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
Dirk's putting up 14 and 6 this year.. healthy or not he's declining and has no case. Duncan is a center first off, second off he did play well enough to get in but he isn't as much better than Griffin as you're making it seem. 17/10/3/3 vs 18.5, 8.5, 3.5,1.5.

You know full well Duncan knows the game and plays it on a whole different level.
Quote:
Spurs and Clippers both have a top 3 record in the league. David Lee is NOT better than Blake Griffin and has a much lower impact. He's got nicer offensive numbers than Blake but he's a pretty terrible defender, plays more minutes and plays on a far worse team. Aldridge is on a team that's barely hanging onto the 8 seed and again isn't a better individual player than Blake despite more minutes and a bigger role giving him better stats. Love may be better but didn't play hardly at all this year, so it's idiotic to play the what if game. Zbo has zero case over Blake this year or any year of Blake's career.

Its not idiotic if you know how to read.

David Lee's team was right there with the Clippers before Bogut joined the team. And he was their only consistent player and their best player. His teammates are categorically WAAAAY worse in every position than the Clippers. So Lee really carried a team that was only like three games behind the Clippers.


Blake, simply put, is not where he should be. If he was a bad player I would simply say well - he's better. But since he a man of great potential its better to measure him with a higher bar - more responsibilities, bigger role, more production, bigger impact - almost none of that applies! Come on now!

The guy is the second most impressive athlete in the game. He rebounded like a top three guy in his first year. He looked like he was capable of being the premier post up guy in the league. Top rookie campaign for a PF. He should be a top 3 player and most definitely can be. As of right now he's definitely not top 10.
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Old 02-14-2013, 04:12 PM   #68
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
You know full well Duncan knows the game and plays it on a whole different level.


Its not idiotic if you know how to read.

David Lee's team was right there with the Clippers before Bogut joined the team. And he was their only consistent player and their best player. His teammates are categorically WAAAAY worse in every position than the Clippers. So Lee really carried a team that was only like three games behind the Clippers.


Blake, simply put, is not where he should be. If he was a bad player I would simply say well - he's better. But since he a man of great potential its better to measure him with a higher bar - more responsibilities, bigger role, more production, bigger impact - almost none of that applies! Come on now!

The guy is the second most impressive athlete in the game. He rebounded like a top three guy in his first year. He looked like he was capable of being the premier post up guy in the league. Top rookie campaign for a PF. He should be a top 3 player and most definitely can be. As of right now he's definitely not top 10.

Duncan is a legend but to say right now he plays it on a whole different level than newer generation top PF's is a great exaggeration. First off he's been a center for 7 years predominantly as I said and second off he's having superb year but don't act like he's the clear cut best bigman of the ones mentioned because it's debatable. Blake is where he should be if you actually watch basketball games and not Basketball Reference.

Blake's skillset has evolved to the point to where if you put him on a bad team again as THE man... no doubt he could easily average 23+ ppg, 12 rpg, 4 apg and 1.5 spg. The only things stopping him from that are the things i mentioned. So much depth and talent surrounding him that he doesn't get nearly as many shots as he did his rookie year. Also he's needed to hit the jumper more than before so he's out of position on rebounds more often.

Then you factor in that when you put 100 percent more energy into defense it's not as easy to go all out crashing the boards. No player in the NBA gives 100 percent effort on offense, defense AND rebounding all the time. You have to learn to take it easy in one facet until you need to turn it on and for Blake that's rebounding lately due to the fact that there is less of a need currently. He's our 3rd best playmaker on the team and despite the numbers he's our 2nd best rebounder to Odom. Most reliable scoring option on the team. One of our best defenders.

I don't think you are understanding the concept of intangibles. Blake's impact on the team is MASSIVE. He's constantly drawing double teams and creating for teammates and that alone regularly swings games.
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:18 AM   #69
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

BG having a big game 20 points in the first
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:55 AM   #70
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
I was trying to reason with you.. but since you want to boxscore watch I guess I'm going to have to educate you a bit more. I don't think you understand what playing 6 minutes less per game on a MUCH more talented team does to numbers. Nonetheless I'll post some great games he's had. For the first month or so of the season he was banged up with a few injuries but after that he really picked it up.


Nov 17th vs the Bulls: 26 points, 10 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals and a block in only 33 minutes of play.


Dec 3rd vs the Jazz: 30 points, 11 rebounds, 1 steal in 37 minutes of play.


Dec 8th vs the Suns: 24 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 steals, 1 block in only 29 minutes.


Dec 23rd vs the Suns: 23 points, 11 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 steals, 1 block in 31 minutes.


Jan 4th vs the Lakers: 24 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal in only 29 minutes.


Jan 5th vs the Warriors: 20 points, 5 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 steals in just 30 minutes.


Jan 12th vs the Magic: 30 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 block in 35 minutes.


Jan 21st vs the Warriors: 26 points, 13 rebounds, 8 assists, 3 steals, 1 block in 41 minutes.


Jan 22nd vs the Thunder: 31 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals and a block in 36 minutes.


Jan 26th vs the Blazers: 24 points, 8 rebounds, 10 assists, 4 steals in 38 minutes.


Jan 27th vs the Blazers: 23 points, 6 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals in just 28 minutes.


Jan 30th vs the Wolves: 26 points, 13 rebounds, 3 steals in 36 minutes.


Feb 3rd vs the Celtics: 20 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists in 36 minutes.


Feb 11th vs the Sixers: 20 points, 9 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 steal in just 28 minutes.



Notice anything? Sure not as many 30 point games but way more balance with big steals numbers and all around stats in LESS minutes. To get those 30+ point games often his rookie year Blake was logging over 38 minutes a game, 7th most in the NBA if I recall. Now that we got that out of the way let me pick apart your other points.


1. Blake does rebound and his PER 36 rebound rate is over 10 which is fine for a PF playing on a team with guys like Odom and DJ who have very good rebound rates. Not to mention Turiaf and Hollins are good per minute rebounders this year.


2. His guards are among the best and all of them are ball dominant guards who either A. take a lot of shots or B. handle the ball a ton. When Billups and CP3 were both out Blake put up better stats than ever before in his career for about a two week stretch.


3. Chris Paul is FAR from the best set up guard in terms of lobs. Baron Davis threw him twice the lobs and Chris Paul often is afraid to throw lobs for fear of a turnover. He CONSTANTLY misses Blake on the spin lob.


4. Blake's motor is still high but as he's matured he's learned to tone it down. Not to mention his rookie year he put ZERO energy into defense, now he puts nearly as much into it as offense so not sure what the aggression comment is based on besides you watching him maybe 5 times.


5. This comment about him fouling more often is actually in direct contradiction to your previous comment that his aggression is down. The reason his fouls are up is because he actually plays good defense now and is MORE aggressive. Who would have thought .


6. FT shooting is actually significantly better. Again I can tell you're boxscore watching because you're looking at total percentage rather than the deeper story here. Beyond that a jump of over 1 percent and climbing is worth noting and still counts. He shot 70 percent in January for the entire month and has been very reliable from the line lately compared to previous seasons.


7. You really wanted to bring up 3 point shooting bro? He's pretty much only ever attempted 3's as a bailout with the clock expiring. Anything he hits or misses has primarily been luck because that's not a shot he normally takes. Sample size is too small and even if he is somehow a worse three point shooter, it doesn't matter for a PF who never attempts them. What's more important is he's become a decently reliable MIDRANGE shooter.


8. No superstars or perennial all stars in the NBA that aren't old play less minutes than Griffin or CP3. EVERYBODY else plays heavier minutes than these two and every top 15 player in the NBA regularly hits 38+ minutes, these guys rarely do. So no the reduced minutes isn't an excuse, it's a fact.


9. So because he's not going to get elected to an all NBA defensive team this year it means his defensive improvement is negligible? Bro I don't think you understand he's not just marginally better defensively. He's went from atrocious, invisible defender to "very solid" or "good" one in just two seasons.


If you need any other education on Clippers players let me know. The only thing I ask is PLEASE don't base such strong opinions on your limited viewing and then right paragraphs ripping a player with false shit.

CP3 is never "Afraid" he just doesn't want to gamble and tries to get better setup play.

Everything else Great post
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:57 AM   #71
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
He's 39th in the league in rebounds per 48 minutes. 21 overall. Its not ok.


Haha, lob shiddy. But he's Chris Paul dammit. Best passing game controlling pg.


I never argued against this.



Haha, I brought that up because you two were acting like he was Einstein now and had an all knowing eye after he evolved from his cave man activities in his rookie year. On the real his rookie year he got those fouls trying to dunk people into the hoop. So he was being aggressive. Now he amazingly fouls himself and flops when point guards hollar at him - ok that was a joke. I never had a problem with his defense being better.



HE'S SHOOTING 65% IN Feb!


Blake came in the league with superstar written all on him and on the fence of being there. There are usually only 7 Superstars, at most, in the league. Its never going to be an 18 and 8 guy that is arguably the third best player on his team. Crawford has more impact on that team and he isn't a superstar.



I was being nice. Trust me, really nice. But you getting a little carried away with it. I said I was learning the finer things about Blake, not the bigger things about Blake. In the many responses here you guys haven't advanced the argument beyond that he's better defensively and his middle game is better. BUT, he obviously is in a diminished role with less production. The SUPER STAR tendency is to grow in responsibility, role, impact and production. He's in reverse. He's growing in his diminished role because nature demands it. He's not maturing toward his superstar potential. You guys here just have low expectations and are ok with small regular player increments.

You are on a cloud if you think he's a superstar.

The guy came into the league more impressively than Barkley. Blake came into the league much more impressive than an older Karl Malone was when he came into the league. A younger KG wasn't really good at anything, but by the time he was BG;s age, he already is one of the most versatile players in the game ever, some of that was natural progression. Charles Barkley two years after coming into the league is a straight up Superstar. In two years Karl Malone is an all out Beast that knows and USES all of his strengths. The distance those guys covered in two years is light years above what Blake has accomplished. They matured into their superstar potential.

Faried, is a much more limited player role player that came in with much lower expectations. His improvements are obvious from year one to year two. I saw him have more impact in a game than Blake based solely on his aggression. Faried's team won that game and Faried was a big reason why. It didn't surprise anybody here because they kind of expect it.

Blake came in blazing now he's a controllable fire.





Then who Odom?
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