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Old 02-11-2013, 02:27 AM   #16
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

if you really think blake griffin has gotten worse since his rookie year, all i can say is that you watch the box score too much. if anything blake griffin is almost the perfect reason why you shouldnt watch the box score so much and watch the games more. his statistical declines have nothing to do with how well he is playing and having more impact contributing to team success
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:36 AM   #17
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Thanks NuggetsFan,
People here are thinking that a player can simply get back to their rookie level of aggression and domination - it doesn't work like that at all. The first thing is that scouting becomes more aggressive and effective as coaches see more of you. Its never good to regress because you start thinking you are a 8 rebound per game player. You think Kevin Love thinks of himself that way. Whatever you settle for - the league will make sure you won't surpass it. He's too young to settle.

All of you who disagree with me, show me the player who averaged 12 and went down to 8 without injury before he was 25 years old. Just give me one example. Barkley wasn't like him at the same age. Moses and Karl Malone weren't close to his play at age 21. On average they would be about 7 ppg and 2 rebounds below Blake. Tim Ducan wasn't as productive as BG either. But at 23, they all would demolish him. They all would probably double up on him - very good chance of that. But yall call it progress. None of them look to the ref like he does. None of them settled for 9 rebounds. That's a mentality.

When you are 23 and 24 you better love the grind and go for it because the love of the doesn't get stronger if you aren't engaging. Domination is a mentality that works like a muscle - you don't use it you loose it.

You guys don't think there's a word out about BG? They know he looks to the refs. They know he rarely has a great game. They know he can be sidetracked. They know they can get a little guy to challenge him. They aren't saying like yall are saying: "he's more efficient, he's smarter." Now if he was more aggressive, claimed more space underneath, and acted like he was the best PF in the game, trust me they make note of that.

He should be dominating gentlemen. Yall just expect little.
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:53 AM   #18
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
Thanks NuggetsFan,

I'm not really agreeing with you. Blake was AWFUL defensively his rookie season. He's became a better defender. His rebounding numbers are down but that probably has to do with Clippers becoming more talented across the board. His scoring hasn't went up like some predicted because he's on competitive teams that have better offensive options, I'm sure if he was on a bottom dweller it would rise just like it did when the Clips got banged up with injuries. His assists are down from his rookie season because a contender like the Clippers probably won't run it's offense through Blake like they did in his rookie season if they want to be contenders.

Since his rookie season he's became a more polished player, better defensively and I'd rather 3rd year Blake Griffin vs rookie Blake Griffin. Rookie Blake Griffin was in a better position to average superior statistics than 3rd year Blake Griffin is what I'm implying.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:19 AM   #19
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Pointguard... Barkley never had the help Blake does now which is why he ended his career ringless. Barkley was one of those players who were so good they carried their respective teams to contention but never had enough help to get it done. I know he had a few awesome players in his career such as KJ but nowhere near the TEAM talent that the current Clippers have. As for Malone having a guy like Stockton who AVERAGED 13+ apg regularly spoon feeding him all day it's not hard to average 28. Not to mention the Jazz offense ran through Malone. The Clippers offense SHOULD run through Griffin and eventually will with a better coach but right now it doesn't nearly enough.

Besides pace was much faster in the 80's and 90's and the game was so different that it's stupid to compare them like that. Blake has a reduced role due to this being one of the deeper teams in the last decade and he is playing less minutes. His rebounding is down because you have high minute players like Odom dominating the glass. Not to mention he's playing from the high post, midrange area way more than before so he's not in position for 12 rpg.

Blake in his prime will likely be a 25/10/4 type player with very good man D, he just needs another 2-3 years to get to his prime.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:21 AM   #20
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
Thanks NuggetsFan,
People here are thinking that a player can simply get back to their rookie level of aggression and domination - it doesn't work like that at all. The first thing is that scouting becomes more aggressive and effective as coaches see more of you. Its never good to regress because you start thinking you are a 8 rebound per game player. You think Kevin Love thinks of himself that way. Whatever you settle for - the league will make sure you won't surpass it. He's too young to settle.

All of you who disagree with me, show me the player who averaged 12 and went down to 8 without injury before he was 25 years old. Just give me one example. Barkley wasn't like him at the same age. Moses and Karl Malone weren't close to his play at age 21. On average they would be about 7 ppg and 2 rebounds below Blake. Tim Ducan wasn't as productive as BG either. But at 23, they all would demolish him. They all would probably double up on him - very good chance of that. But yall call it progress. None of them look to the ref like he does. None of them settled for 9 rebounds. That's a mentality.

When you are 23 and 24 you better love the grind and go for it because the love of the doesn't get stronger if you aren't engaging. Domination is a mentality that works like a muscle - you don't use it you loose it.

You guys don't think there's a word out about BG? They know he looks to the refs. They know he rarely has a great game. They know he can be sidetracked. They know they can get a little guy to challenge him. They aren't saying like yall are saying: "he's more efficient, he's smarter." Now if he was more aggressive, claimed more space underneath, and acted like he was the best PF in the game, trust me they make note of that.

He should be dominating gentlemen. Yall just expect little.


just looking at the # of rebounds tells you very little. He's got DJ and crew sucking up more rebounds these days and he plays less minutes.

If you want to really judge BG you need to watch him play. He pulled a sweet little stepback on Tyson Chandler yesterday that would have been impossible for rookie Blake

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
Please show me another player who came in at 22.5 and 12.5 and looks like Blake two years later. Please, just name me one. He came in with one of the best rookie campaigns from a modern day PF, it was like TD's. When he's aggressive people say he's the same athlete as Lebron. Right now, that seems like some cruel joke. His assertiveness is like a role players. 18 and 8.5??? He was one of the few that had the promise of a post game. 8.5rebs is garbage. I guess yall would know best but trust me, he was feared at one point. I just don't see him getting 30 and 15 I fully expect that from Kevin Love I expect 15 and 8 from Blake - the guy who came in dominant.

He looks better than the Blake who had 22.5 and 12.5.

look at per 36 and he's been within 1 point each of his seasons. If stats are all you care about then check out the advanced ones and get back to me http://www.basketball-reference.com/...griffbl01.html


Griffin's rookie year he had an injured eric gordon and RANDY FOYE as his two other offensive options and that team BLEW. Mo williams and Bdiddy were hurt almost all of that year

Now that he has CP3 and Jcraw scoring why would you expect him to score as many points? Especially when he impacts the team offensively even when he isn't scoring. He's top 5 for PF's as a ballhandler and passer imo





@OP You're right on Tyreke though I don't know what went wrong with that guy. Refuses to use his left hand for layups and it might be seriously limiting him. Just watch him play he's always trying to do a reverse with his right hand instead of just laying it in with his left

Last edited by ralph_i_el : 02-11-2013 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:39 PM   #21
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
Pointguard... Barkley never had the help Blake does now which is why he ended his career ringless. Barkley was one of those players who were so good they carried their respective teams to contention but never had enough help to get it done. I know he had a few awesome players in his career such as KJ but nowhere near the TEAM talent that the current Clippers have. As for Malone having a guy like Stockton who AVERAGED 13+ apg regularly spoon feeding him all day it's not hard to average 28. Not to mention the Jazz offense ran through Malone. The Clippers offense SHOULD run through Griffin and eventually will with a better coach but right now it doesn't nearly enough.
Barkley averages were 20 and 12 on a legit top contender (Moses, Doc and Mo Cheeks) in his second year. Chris Paul is talked about as the best PG in the game?
Quote:
Besides pace was much faster in the 80's and 90's and the game was so different that it's stupid to compare them like that. Blake has a reduced role due to this being one of the deeper teams in the last decade and he is playing less minutes. His rebounding is down because you have high minute players like Odom dominating the glass. Not to mention he's playing from the high post, midrange area way more than before so he's not in position for 12 rpg.

Blake in his prime will likely be a 25/10/4 type player with very good man D, he just needs another 2-3 years to get to his prime.

I can accept that. But right now he's not where he should be. He came in great with a potential as high as any PF that ever played the game. He shot the three with more confidence and accuracy, he attacked with passion, he was in every game and the opposition wondered if he might have a monster game on him. Blake came in at great magnitude (he averaged a regular year for TD and KG in their prime) at 21 years of age, he's more productive than the top 5 PF of all time at the same age. Three year later he's definitely not as good as KG and TD when they are 36 years old and shadows of themselves. They still are better than him in energy categories - defense and rebounding. That should just not be.

Great players have great games. Average players have an occasional great game. OJ Mayo has more game threads here than Blake does. Blake might have had two or three very good games but I wouldn't call them great - maybe yall will, but you post more than a virus on Facebook (no habit hatin tho) and you don't even create Blake post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph_i_el
just looking at the # of rebounds tells you very little. He's got DJ and crew sucking up more rebounds these days and he plays less minutes.

If you want to really judge BG you need to watch him play. He pulled a sweet little stepback on Tyson Chandler yesterday that would have been impossible for rookie Blake



He looks better than the Blake who had 22.5 and 12.5.

look at per 36 and he's been within 1 point each of his seasons. If stats are all you care about then check out the advanced ones and get back to me http://www.basketball-reference.com/...griffbl01.html

I just want to make this clear. Screw the stats. He doesn't play dominant. He plays very well but way too contained. This stuff about he's smarter and more efficient means very little for his position - it might mean more for ball handlers or defensive cogs. He plays PF, The grit and grind position. What you put in is what other players respect. If his team isn't leading the league in rebounds then 8.5 is simply not good enough.

A dominant player is an aggressive player. He came in with a touch - I don't think its developed like it should have. He came in going after every board with avengence, now he's calculating where the ball will land. He came in a very creative player, now he's fitting in. He used to have great explosive games, now he's a sophisticated role player. And this is progress??? He doesn't have to sacrifice these aspects of his game for the team. He came in dominant, now he's not.

Ibaka is a premier blocker, Gasol, Tim, KG have great all around game, Aldrige and Dirk score, Love shoots, scores and rebounds, Blake is more efficient now than he was in his rookie year. What type of garbage is that? Blake doesn't even have a particular niche anymore.
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:00 PM   #22
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuggetsFan
I'm not really agreeing with you. Blake was AWFUL defensively his rookie season. He's became a better defender. His rebounding numbers are down but that probably has to do with Clippers becoming more talented across the board. His scoring hasn't went up like some predicted because he's on competitive teams that have better offensive options, I'm sure if he was on a bottom dweller it would rise just like it did when the Clips got banged up with injuries. His assists are down from his rookie season because a contender like the Clippers probably won't run it's offense through Blake like they did in his rookie season if they want to be contenders.

Since his rookie season he's became a more polished player, better defensively and I'd rather 3rd year Blake Griffin vs rookie Blake Griffin. Rookie Blake Griffin was in a better position to average superior statistics than 3rd year Blake Griffin is what I'm implying.
You Raphiel, ClippersFan, Myth, Duma at least back up what you say. I don't care if we disagree. The thanks was for getting others involved in the process of talking it out.

My point is that the mentality of dominance, or that I belong on the stage in a big way, is much different than the way Blake approaches the game now. As a coach and player you recognize a player for how he sees himself on the court. Blake can have a big game but he isn't very likely to have one. In his rookie year he was much more likely to have a big game.
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:13 PM   #23
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
You Raphiel, ClippersFan, Myth, Duma at least back up what you say. I don't care if we disagree. The thanks was for getting others involved in the process of talking it out.

My point is that the mentality of dominance, or that I belong on the stage in a big way, is much different than the way Blake approaches the game now. As a coach and player you recognize a player for how he sees himself on the court. Blake can have a big game but he isn't very likely to have one. In his rookie year he was much more likely to have a big game.

I can agree with that. We'll see what happens in the playoffs this year with real expectations
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:16 PM   #24
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Pointguard not sure if you watch Blake that often but one HUGE problem is the coach. Blake will regularly have 12 to 15 points in the first half... But inexplicably get 3 shots the entire second half and almost no touches. If we get a better coach, watch Blake blossom. Blake was one of coach K's favorite players and was going to start at PF on the USA team because coach K liked his game and attitude more than love. Melo ended up playing 4 cause of Blake's injury.
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:47 PM   #25
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
Pointguard not sure if you watch Blake that often but one HUGE problem is the coach. Blake will regularly have 12 to 15 points in the first half... But inexplicably get 3 shots the entire second half and almost no touches. If we get a better coach, watch Blake blossom. Blake was one of coach K's favorite players and was going to start at PF on the USA team because coach K liked his game and attitude more than love. Melo ended up playing 4 cause of Blake's injury.

No I seen maybe seven games... You and Raphiel are educating me on the finer things. As you do, I disagree with the way he is being used. To me, I really thought BG was going to be the main guy in the league with a lethal post game. I really though he was a lock for HOF with potential to be a top 5 PF. He could have been a bigger and stronger Dominique Wilkins with great rebounding tendencies. But now I'm like he's Vince Carter of the PFs. Can do it all but you won't ever see too much of it.

On the Bulls, instead of Boozer, he might be closer to his potential. But once you go dominant if you leave its not easy to comeback to it. Its rare to see a coach go away from a great talent's strength like this. But he has to claim his greatness. He has to say the boards are mine, the lane is mine, the post - I own it.
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:59 PM   #26
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
The more they know the game the worse they get. Great Rookie campaigns but it was all south from there. Both were huge athletes at their position with great know-how of doing their thing there, but have both shrunk severely and seemingly know less about themselves and the game. I never seen anything like them. Are they taking an Anti-steriods?

1. Anybody else like them?
2. On what teams could they look like their rookie selves?
3. Have NBA coaches dumbed em down?
1. Don't like Griffin. Puts the ball on the floor too much, non-existent post game, has regressed quite a bit. Love Reke's handle, fun to watch in his rookie season. Both of them as you've said think too much now, and have over-complicated their games.

2. I'd love to have Evans on the Bulls in the absence of Rose. Hell, even with Rose. I don't care if his jumper is suspect, Bulls need another fearless guard who can create off the dribble. Thibs won't put him in shackles on offense. Let him cook in the kitchen, like he did Rose. Plus they were rivals in HS and AAU, let them make each other better through competition.

3. No, NBA coaches have over coached them. They need to keep it simple. Both of them. Blake, learn the basics of post up. How you can go from 22 ppg 12 rpg and regress this much with experience and better teammates is alarming. He's probably their 3rd or 4th best player now, when he should be breaking out.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:05 PM   #27
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
Blake's rebounding is the only thing that seemed to have dipped. I think he was more aggressive as a rookie, but overall he is smarter and more efficient.

Blake's first game though dropped my jaw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcODpwKFhgU
he's playing with better rebounders thats probably why
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:13 PM   #28
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Have you even watched Blake Griffin this have you atleast looked at his stats outside of ppg/rpg/apg stats?
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:44 PM   #29
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

#FreeTyreke

(my first attempt at a hashtag thing)
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:34 PM   #30
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Default Re: Tyreke and Blake Griffin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Money 23
1. Don't like Griffin. Puts the ball on the floor too much, non-existent post game, has regressed quite a bit. Love Reke's handle, fun to watch in his rookie season. Both of them as you've said think too much now, and have over-complicated their games.

2. I'd love to have Evans on the Bulls in the absence of Rose. Hell, even with Rose. I don't care if his jumper is suspect, Bulls need another fearless guard who can create off the dribble. Thibs won't put him in shackles on offense. Let him cook in the kitchen, like he did Rose. Plus they were rivals in HS and AAU, let them make each other better through competition.

3. No, NBA coaches have over coached them. They need to keep it simple. Both of them. Blake, learn the basics of post up. How you can go from 22 ppg 12 rpg and regress this much with experience and better teammates is alarming. He's probably their 3rd or 4th best player now, when he should be breaking out.

just read back through the rest of this thread and educate yourself

Better teammates sometimes means less stats
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