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Old 02-05-2013, 05:47 PM   #211
funnystuff
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
Might as well put Bird above Kareem too then if you're going by this.
Why make this about Kareem? Fact is, Bird won more rings as top dog then Kobe has.

If it upsets you or are in denial, i suggest counseling/therapy.
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:48 PM   #212
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
What has Bird done in his playoff career that Kobe hasn't?

PS stats

Kobe - 25.6/5.1/4.7/1.4/0.7 on 45/33/82

Bird - 23.8/10.3/6.5/1.8/0.9 on 47/32/89

Final stats

Kobe - 25.3/5.7/5.1/1.8/0.9 on 41% FG, 31% 3p, 88% FT, 42.7 MPG

Bird - 23.1/11.7/6.0/2.0/0.8 on 46% FG, 42% 3p, 87% FT, 42.8 MPG


Game 7 stats

Kobe - 22.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 5.0 apg on 38.9 %FG/48.9 %TS

Bird - 27.0 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 6.8 apg on 49.7 %FG/59.4 %TS


Bird also had a triple-double Finals average if you round the numbers in 1986
And just to go with a prime year, in 1984 his PS stats were 27.5/11.0/5.9/2.3/1.2 on 52/41/88 going through King's Knicks, Moncrief and them Bucks, and the Showtime Lakers

Plus Bird faced better competition, was always the leader, never had a player the caliber of Shaq, and played with career ending injury in his last years
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:51 PM   #213
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

Quote:
Originally Posted by SHAQisGOAT
PS stats

Kobe - 25.6/5.1/4.7/1.4/0.7 on 45/33/82

Bird - 23.8/10.3/6.5/1.8/0.9 on 47/32/89

Final stats

Kobe - 25.3/5.7/5.1/1.8/0.9 on 41% FG, 31% 3p, 88% FT, 42.7 MPG

Bird - 23.1/11.7/6.0/2.0/0.8 on 46% FG, 42% 3p, 87% FT, 42.8 MPG


Game 7 stats

Kobe - 22.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 5.0 apg on 38.9 %FG/48.9 %TS

Bird - 27.0 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 6.8 apg on 49.7 %FG/59.4 %TS


Bird also had a triple-double Finals average if you round the numbers in 1986
And just to go with a prime year, in 1984 his PS stats were 27.5/11.0/5.9/2.3/1.2 on 52/41/88 going through King's Knicks, Moncrief and them Bucks, and the Showtime Lakers

Plus Bird faced better competition, was always the leader, never had a player the caliber of Shaq, and played with career ending injury in his last years


White Hick from French Lick was an utter BEAST
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:09 PM   #214
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

Quote:
Originally Posted by funnystuff
Why make this about Kareem? Fact is, Bird won more rings as top dog then Kobe has.

If it upsets you or are in denial, i suggest counseling/therapy.
"Top dog" rings need to have context. It depends who is on your team. The 80s Lakers had Magic and Kareem. Early 00s Lakers had Shaq and Kobe. Bird didn't play with a single player that was on a level close to him, this doesn't mean that he hasn't had great teams like the others did because players 3-12 matter too. Kobe 29.4/7.3/6.1/46.9FG/55.5TS in the 01 Playoffs. But that ring doesn't count because it wasn't "top dog"?
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:13 PM   #215
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

Quote:
Originally Posted by funnystuff
Being the top player on his team for the majority of earned rings.
In that case Bill Russell is by far the GOAT then.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:15 PM   #216
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

Quote:
Originally Posted by SHAQisGOAT
PS stats

Kobe - 25.6/5.1/4.7/1.4/0.7 on 45/33/82

Bird - 23.8/10.3/6.5/1.8/0.9 on 47/32/89

Final stats

Kobe - 25.3/5.7/5.1/1.8/0.9 on 41% FG, 31% 3p, 88% FT, 42.7 MPG

Bird - 23.1/11.7/6.0/2.0/0.8 on 46% FG, 42% 3p, 87% FT, 42.8 MPG


Game 7 stats

Kobe - 22.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 5.0 apg on 38.9 %FG/48.9 %TS

Bird - 27.0 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 6.8 apg on 49.7 %FG/59.4 %TS


Bird also had a triple-double Finals average if you round the numbers in 1986
And just to go with a prime year, in 1984 his PS stats were 27.5/11.0/5.9/2.3/1.2 on 52/41/88 going through King's Knicks, Moncrief and them Bucks, and the Showtime Lakers

Plus Bird faced better competition, was always the leader, never had a player the caliber of Shaq, and played with career ending injury in his last years
Kobe's at 27.4 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 5.1 apg on 45/34/82 as a starter in the Playoffs. Kobe has played in a tougher defensive era of 98-2004 that Bird never played in so his numbers are down a little bit from that since half his playoff career is 99-04. Kobe has played in 13 playoff series vs a defense that had a defensive rating below 100, how many has Bird played in? I don't think he played vs a single one. Again, what did Bird have in his playoff career that Kobe doesn't.

Last edited by Deuce Bigalow : 02-05-2013 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:44 PM   #217
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
"Top dog" rings need to have context. It depends who is on your team. The 80s Lakers had Magic and Kareem. Early 00s Lakers had Shaq and Kobe. Bird didn't play with a single player that was on a level close to him, this doesn't mean that he hasn't had great teams like the others did because players 3-12 matter too. Kobe 29.4/7.3/6.1/46.9FG/55.5TS in the 01 Playoffs. But that ring doesn't count because it wasn't "top dog"?
When did i say that rings dont count if you aren't top dog? Of course they do, its just less impressive.

And anyone outside of Kobe stans realize that Kobe has been very lucky through his career
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:02 PM   #218
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

Quote:
Originally Posted by funnystuff
When did i say that rings dont count if you aren't top dog? Of course they do, its just less impressive.

And anyone outside of Kobe stans realize that Kobe has been very lucky through his career
So that is what you have, that he's lucky?
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:04 PM   #219
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
What has Bird done in his playoff career that Kobe hasn't?



Bird is just a better basketball player. He did more. Even when the shot was off, he was consistent in making plays and making plays for others. And at his best, he was better.



And I think Kareem is overrated. Bird was a better player.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:56 PM   #220
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

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Originally Posted by ProfessorMurder
For the post.



Quote:
Just to clarify I said Dirk's playoff numbers were average for a star. Any guy that is the leader of a team and averages 20/10 in the playoffs is great...

At this current time, he's only 1 of 4 players to average 25/10 in the playoffs. So I'm saying it's not just average, this is pretty rare company.

Quote:
The value of defense vs. offense debate isn't really going to get solved. KG's playoff scoring dipped in Boston though because he focused on defense more. He was capable of averaging 25 in the playoffs if he was the focal point.

Yeah, I agree with Garnett averaging more. The fact they had 2 better scorers in Pierce and Allen, meant Garnett didn't need to give them 20 a night and could make anchoring the defense is full commitment. It payed of very well.

Quote:
In the playoffs from 00-01 to 03-04 KG put up:

24.4 ppg / 14.9 reb / 5 ast / 1.4 stl / 2 blk / 3.4 to
on 47.3% / 30% / 75.6%

In those series KG played 43.3 minutes per game, against the following front lines (with Nesterovic or 36 year old Earvin Johnson as his front court partner):

Spurs - Duncan, Robinson,
Mavs - Shawn Bradley, Dirk, Juwon Howard, Raef LaFrentz,
Lakers - Mark Madsen, Shaq,
Nuggets - Birdman, Camby, Nene,
Kings - Brad Miller, CWebb, Vlade,
Lakers - Karl Malone, Shaq, and Horace Grant

He was running himself ragged, and took the Shaq/Kobe Lakers to 6 games twice.

Very good point.

From the similar time period with Nowitzki, 00-01 - 03-04; Averaging 42.4 minutes with a stat line off:

25.9ppg 11.1rpg 1.8apg 1.4spg 1.3bpg 2tpg 44.9%fg 44.1%3pt 88.3%ft

The competition they faced isn't that different either.

Jazz: Malone/Ostertag
Spurs: Duncan/Robinson
T-Wolves: Garnett/Nesterovic (as you mentioned)
Kings: Webber/Jackson
Blazers: R.Wallace/D.Davis

His main running mates were Shawn Bradley, Raef LaFrentz, and Antoine Walker (where Nowitzki also had to play center in 2 years). The main problem here was no defensive identity and it wouldn't help with Nowitzki's later years with Eric Dampier being his long time running mate at center.

But yeah, they usually had the more talented offensive teams, but it is very close statistically speaking.

Quote:
I do think it's interesting that they've played within 3 playoff games of each other, both won a finals series, both lost one, and both got bounced early a bunch of times.

For the most part, it is true. I think the 3 game series is another leg for the Nowitzki camp since it's clear outplayed Garnett in that series... it didn't help that Garnett something along the lines off "You'll see this black angel pick him up 94 feet and we'll see how good his dribbling is"... don't have the exact quote, but it clearly fired up Nowitzki and he went off in that series.

Quote:
They're tough to compare. It really depends what style of play you like if you were going to start a team. I side with KG slightly, but I love Dirk.

I agree... that's really what it comes down to, as well. Both styles can be very effective if you can build around them properly. I think Garnett overall peaked higher as a player but Dirk's ability to carry some overachieving Mavs teams, I'm pretty confident in saying he had the better career.

It's a great argument, IMO, and I'm glad to hear your side on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
Dirk can't really be argued over the following players(in my opinion)

Jordan
Russell
Hakeem
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem
Oscar
West
Baylor
Moses
Garnett
Robinson
Erving
Isiah
Malone
Mikan
Pettit
Hondo


but to say that he's top 20 isn't all that far from the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Money 23
Russell
Kareem
Chamberlain
Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Jordan
LeBron
Kobe
Jerry West
Oscar
Elgin Baylor
Kevin Garnett
Julius Erving
John Havlicek
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Isiah Thomas
David Robinson


That's just off the top of the dome.

The bold can more than be debated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne 1
In that case Bill Russell is by far the GOAT then.

See no problem with that. Maybe not "by far", but calling him GOAT ? No problem, whatsoever.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:07 PM   #221
SHAQisGOAT
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

Quote:
Originally Posted by Money 23


White Hick from French Lick was an utter BEAST

Indeed

Also regarding the PS, Bird is the only player to be in the top 10 in 4 of the 5 statistical categories, points (9th), rebounds (10th), assists (4th) and steals (6th). This while being "only" 25th in games played with 164. Dudes like Kareem with 237, Kobe with 220, Magic with 190, Jordan with 179...

Last edited by SHAQisGOAT : 02-05-2013 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:15 PM   #222
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
So that is what you have, that he's lucky?
Umm, but he is.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:18 PM   #223
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Kobe
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Wilt
10. Hakeem
11. West
12. Moses
13. KG
14. Lebron
15. Dr. J
16. Barkley
17. Baylor
18. Dirk
19. Wade
20. Malone

Really hard to rank 15-20 but this is what I think. Check Dirk's playoff numbers and his clutch plays in the Playoffs, I can't put guys like Malone and D-Rob ahead of him because they have not had playoffs like Dirk had.

To rank Dirk ahead of DRob is to ignore defense in a sense. DRob was 2-3x the defender that Dirk was. Dirk was better on offense, but not that much better.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:20 PM   #224
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

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Originally Posted by plowking
Kevin Garnett is grossly overrated on this forum, while Dirk remains criminally underrated.

What has Garnett done to be ranked top 15 on some lists?

Been one of the best defenders in NBA history?

People underrate the defensive impact a good big can have.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:22 PM   #225
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne 1
In that case Bill Russell is by far the GOAT then.

He arguably is.
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