Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history
Quote:
Originally Posted by Money 23
D-Rob has 2 rings and an MVP. How can he not be ranked above Dirk? Besides being the better player. He was a better player, and his resume is better.
Wade? His non MVP season (2009) is better than Dirk's ACTUAL MVP season (2007) ... he has a FMVP and 2x rings (about to be three this year) ... essentially will go down with at least 2 more rings than Dirk and out played him in BOTH of their Finals meetings.
Ewing was the better player, he doesn't have a ring or MVP on his resume because of a dude named MJ dominated his decade.
Dirk picked up his MVP in a two year transitional period of the league, when rules were trying to swing the direction back to entertaining, free-flowing basketball and getting away from the ultra slow controlled pace of the late 90s and early to mid 2000s.
Nash won an un-deserved MVP, and then Dirk did. The best player in the game during that time (2006, 2007) aka Kobe Bryant, was suffering on a meager and un-talented team that couldn't compete for a ring. So he was out the running.
Context kills Dirk's resume. He won his ring, in all sincerity, because one of the best players of all-time oddly pouted and withdrew himself from competition.
Iverson has an MVP and took a bunch of defensive role players to the Finals, on his 5'11 shoulders. Only to steal one win against the most dominant playoff team of all-time, lead by 2x top ten players of all-time (Shaq and Kobe) ... to me, more impressive than Dirk's 2006, 2007, or 2011.
Those guys have arguments. Either way, Dirk isn't top twenty of all-time. And I don't get why it's so difficult for you to just tell us your opinion on the top twenty guys of all-time. You should be able to bust it out quickly if you considered Dirk to be top twenty, that easily.
wow, what a bunch of horse shiit here.
I dont think dirk is top 20 either, but this right here is pure bullshiit.
discreditting his MVP, saying he picked up his title in a transitional period (talk about bron, weak conference, shortened season, choked). Dirk is also above AI because of his career.
Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just2McFly
and Petit and Barkley being ahead of him is just plain wrong.
I wouldn't say it like that.
If you want to dock Pettit because he played in the 50s-60s period, fine. But Barkley probably peaked higher as a player and was very good in the playoffs as well.
I believe you can rank Nowitzki, Barkley, Pettit, Garnett, and Malone... in any order after Tim Duncan in the PF ranking. Same thing in the all-time ranking. The only one to really evaluate is Pettit. I like to keep things relative to one's era, so I don't think it's wrong to consider Pettit something like... the 2nd greatest PF of all-time, nor over Nowitzki either.
Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history
Quote:
Originally Posted by Money 23
D-Rob has 2 rings and an MVP. How can he not be ranked above Dirk? Besides being the better player. He was a better player, and his resume is better.
Wade? His non MVP season (2009) is better than Dirk's ACTUAL MVP season (2007) ... he has a FMVP and 2x rings (about to be three this year) ... essentially will go down with at least 2 more rings than Dirk and out played him in BOTH of their Finals meetings.
Ewing was the better player, he doesn't have a ring or MVP on his resume because of a dude named MJ dominated his decade.
Dirk picked up his MVP in a two year transitional period of the league, when rules were trying to swing the direction back to entertaining, free-flowing basketball and getting away from the ultra slow controlled pace of the late 90s and early to mid 2000s.
Nash won an un-deserved MVP, and then Dirk did. The best player in the game during that time (2006, 2007) aka Kobe Bryant, was suffering on a meager and un-talented team that couldn't compete for a ring. So he was out the running.
Context kills Dirk's resume. He won his ring, in all sincerity, because one of the best players of all-time oddly pouted and withdrew himself from competition.
Iverson has an MVP and took a bunch of defensive role players to the Finals, on his 5'11 shoulders. Only to steal one win against the most dominant playoff team of all-time, lead by 2x top ten players of all-time (Shaq and Kobe) ... to me, more impressive than Dirk's 2006, 2007, or 2011.
Those guys have arguments. Either way, Dirk isn't top twenty of all-time. And I don't get why it's so difficult for you to just tell us your opinion on the top twenty guys of all-time. You should be able to bust it out quickly if you considered Dirk to be top twenty, that easily.
I agree with most of what you said, but you can't say anything about Dirk's ring, including Lebron checking out. The Mavericks were better as a team and Dirk played the best. He played better than Wade too. Wade had an argument thru 4 games but not after. With context it's really unfair to argue that Wade had the better series. Besides, Dirk had a better regular season than Lebron (which most people will never credit, as Durant even made the All-NBA Team ahead of Nowitzki).
Dirk is an all-time great player, so what Lebron did or didn't do is honestly irrelevant. He was there and he was healthy. You can be the best and not win and even get outplayed.
Iverson has no argument. You could argue he was a better peak player, tho I would not. However, the career issue is all in Dirk's favor. I would rank Patrick ahead of Dirk, and a lot of people would be pissed. But his basketball play was better than Dirk's, I feel. David Robinson is the only guy to win MVP, DPOTY, lead the league in scoring and lead the league in rebounding. Robinson is a better player than Duncan, too. Tho Duncan is going to rank higher (and I have no argument against that). So I'm good with that and actually feel it's illogical to argue against Robinson.
Truly, a list like this has to be looked into...because it's hard not to give some people credit. The more I watch Oscar Robertson the more he drops. Terrific player, but the times I say Lebron does too much and hogs the ball...it can't be compared to Robertson doing it. I wouldn't rank him ahead of Dirk, as great as he was. But again, I should probably do more research before I make anything definitive. I know Dr. J would definitely not rank ahead of Nowitzki.
Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history
Quote:
Originally Posted by Money 23
On what merits? KG has an MVP, a ring, countless defensive team awards, and was just flat out the better player.
On what grounds could you rank Dirk over KG? I can't think of a single one.
As a better playoff performer (which I look into highly) and an amazing playoff run to boot, countless winning seasons as the best player, a Finals MVP, redefining his position, etc...
And this might be opinionated, but bringing a title to a franchise that didn't have one to begin with... Dirk's ring is clearly more impressive over Garnett's ring from the Celtics, which was a much deeper team and already had countless history behind it over Dallas.
Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history
Quote:
Originally Posted by chazzy
Factoring in Dirk's longevity, playoff numbers, insane clutch play, and his all time great 2011 run, he is top 20
Russell
Kareem
Chamberlain
Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Jordan
LeBron
Kobe
Jerry West
Oscar
Elgin Baylor
Kevin Garnett
Julius Erving
John Havlicek
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Isiah Thomas
David Robinson
Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history
Quote:
Originally Posted by Money 23
Russell
Kareem
Chamberlain
Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Jordan
LeBron
Kobe
Jerry West
Oscar
Elgin Baylor
Kevin Garnett
Julius Erving
John Havlicek
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Isiah Thomas
David Robinson
Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history
Only can ISH can you say, "Dirk is top 20". Then instead of people just admitting that could be a possibility, they present an argument full of ridiculous hate. He's at worst not far off from that to most people here anyways. Like the GREAT Legends(one of teh best posters here) said, ISH as a whole has him near the 20 mark.
If you don't think he's top 20, fine. That wasn't even the point of that now edited post. My point was that he's an all time great who was destroying everything in sight. You can't use a condescending point of view as if Bird will easily duplicate what Dirk did if the 86 Celtics faced the 11 Heat.
But even that is off base because before that the point of discussion was focused on the 2012 Heat.
I made this thread go off topic and it's time to get back on track.
I feel like discussion here sucks because people never keep their arguments straight and contradict themselves by choosing different ways to judge players, seasons, games and styles of play instead of just being fair or close to it.
When I judge players all time, I value championships, awards, longevity and impact.
While Wade may have more championships and an insane peak season to his name, Dirk's stellar 14 year career with an MVP consistent winning trumps that IMO.
I think it's simply laughable to rank Mikan because honestly, how many of us has even seen him play? How many of you guys actually watched a full Mikan game? I know I haven't.
I am one of the biggest Iverson fans here. With that said, his career resume isn't as great as Dirk's. Neither is Nash's. You cannot be serious with Ewing either.
D-Rob is a interesting choice. He did have a good career, but wasn't winning anything without Duncan carrying them. I wouldn't be mad at someone taking his career over Dirk though.
I have: Jordan/Kareem/Russell/Wilt/Magic/ Bird/Shaq/Duncan/Kobe/Hakeem/ Lebron/West/Robertson/KG/Erving/Havliceck solidly ahead of Dirk.
I might be missing someone though, I'm too busying bumpin some Drizzy.
Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history
