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Old 02-18-2013, 12:55 PM   #76
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Default Re: Wish people didn't make this all about the QBs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackass18
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...803692432.html

My point is that they're tackles, and they don't really mean as much as you think.
they became "official" in 2001 though, that site is wrong

they don't mean everything and yeah they can be misleading, but at the same time there is a reason that Willis and Lewis are always in the top-10 of tacklers each year if healthy...they are always in on the action

I think is says "something"...you certainly can't claim that Lewis didn't do anything when he had as many tackles as the entire SF LB core
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Old 02-18-2013, 01:59 PM   #77
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Default Re: Wish people didn't make this all about the QBs

The day after the Cowboys win the Superbowl P.Tiddy topic - WHY THE SUPERBOWL IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN DEFINING A QB.

Note: P Tiddy - i love Ray Lewis, but his value this playoffs was more from the aspect of "leadership" and intangibles. he was getting killed out there. he was the person in coverage on the SF TE's that were running free all game. He did not have a good playoffs. Tackles are a terrible stat, you can run in last second and pile jump and get tackles sometimes.
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:59 PM   #78
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Default Re: Wish people didn't make this all about the QBs

Quote:
Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-
they became "official" in 2001 though, that site is wrong

they don't mean everything and yeah they can be misleading, but at the same time there is a reason that Willis and Lewis are always in the top-10 of tacklers each year if healthy...they are always in on the action

I think is says "something"...you certainly can't claim that Lewis didn't do anything when he had as many tackles as the entire SF LB core

Are you sure they are "official"? From a 2012 article quoting a spokesman from the NFL:

Quote:
One problem, observers say, is that even though tackle statistics are widely cited by the media and are always included in the official summaries NFL teams put out after every game, the league doesn't consider this an "official" statistic. In other words, the league doesn't verify it or take any responsibility for whether it's accurate. "The stats crews at each NFL stadium track tackle totals," a league spokesman explained.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...803692432.html

From a 2003 article which is obviously past the 2001 date you set for when they became official:

Quote:
The NFL said no one has ever come up with a system that would standardize the definition of a tackle and make it a credible statistic.

"Who makes the tackle is very hard to ascertain, even with the aid of video," league spokesman Michael Signora said.

Quote:
Signora said the NFL is willing to listen to any suggestions.

"Until the question of standardizing how a player is credited with a tackle is answered, we'll continue with the current system," he said. "Quite frankly, the coaches seem comfortable grading film and assigning tackles in that fashion."

and just one more quote that deals with the Ray Lewis thing and how tackling doesn't mean he was playing well..

Quote:
Hirdt also points out that official tackling stats won't necessarily single out the best defenders. Many defenses are set up to funnel tackles to the a particular player (often the middle linebacker), who will lead the team in stops even when he's had a bad season.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200....statistic.ap/
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:20 PM   #79
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Default Re: Wish people didn't make this all about the QBs

according to ProFootball Reference they are "official"...but perhaps they are wrong idk

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...t/glossary.htm

Quote:
Tkl - tackles. We have tackle data for all players who were active in 1994 or later. Prior to 1994, the tackle data is unofficial, inconsistently recorded from team to team, and incomplete in our database. Also, before 1994, some teams recorded assists while others didn't, so we have lumped tackles plus assists together in the tackles column for those years. From 1994 to 2000, tackles were not an official stat, but were recorded consistently and should be complete in our database. From 2001 to the present, tackles have been an official statistic.

NFL.com does list tackles

it really doesn't matter I don't think weather or not they are "official" or not...whatever
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:33 PM   #80
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Default Re: Wish people didn't make this all about the QBs

Terrell Suggs: Ravens' Super Bowl run 'next to impossible' if Ray Lewis hadn't retired

http://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon...twork/1909541/

Quote:
"We've always been a pretty dangerous team in the playoffs. We knew with Ray's announcing that he was retiring and how we normally play in the playoffs, those two combined together rallied one of the most emotional runs I've ever been a part of."


one of you needs to email Suggs and let him know his entire team is Flacco...because he is unaware
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:37 PM   #81
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Default Re: Wish people didn't make this all about the QBs

Quote:
Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-
they became "official" in 2001 though, that site is wrong

It's not saying it in the same vein as you are. It's more saying that they don't put much stock into it. They don't bother to verify the numbers nor take any responsibility for them.

Quote:
they don't mean everything and yeah they can be misleading, but at the same time there is a reason that Willis and Lewis are always in the top-10 of tacklers each year if healthy...they are always in on the action

Lewis hasn't been up there that much in the last half of his career. It's a decent measure over the course of a season, but it's one of the lesser meaningful stats. LBs are supposed to be in there on the action.

Quote:
I think is says "something"...you certainly can't claim that Lewis didn't do anything when he had as many tackles as the entire SF LB core

Nobody is saying he did nothing, just that he wasn't great. He played in more games and got credited for a number of tackles where he didn't really do anything. "Modern NFL defenses are so complex it's nearly impossible to quantify one player's performance. And counting tackles isn't always the best way to determine a player's contribution."
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:14 AM   #82
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Default Re: Wish people didn't make this all about the QBs

Quote:
Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-
Terrell Suggs: Ravens' Super Bowl run 'next to impossible' if Ray Lewis hadn't retired

http://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon...twork/1909541/




one of you needs to email Suggs and let him know his entire team is Flacco...because he is unaware

He is talking about his presence and his leadership, etc. Not his tackling. Serious question: Did you watch the games? You are talking about Lewis in a way in this playoffs that makes me wonder if you did.
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:42 AM   #83
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Default Re: Wish people didn't make this all about the QBs

Quote:
Originally Posted by niko
He is talking about his presence and his leadership, etc. Not his tackling. Serious question: Did you watch the games? You are talking about Lewis in a way in this playoffs that makes me wonder if you did.
I watched every single playoff game...the ONLY bad play I saw Lewis make was an interception that he should have caught...other than that he was playing at a high level imo

I don't think YOU watched the games...somehow you missed 50+ tackles, more than Willis and Bowman combined...

IMO Willis was more quiet this post season than Lewis was...
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:16 PM   #84
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Default Re: Wish people didn't make this all about the QBs

Quote:
Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-
I watched every single playoff game...the ONLY bad play I saw Lewis make was an interception that he should have caught...other than that he was playing at a high level imo

I don't think YOU watched the games...somehow you missed 50+ tackles, more than Willis and Bowman combined...

IMO Willis was more quiet this post season than Lewis was...

Dude, the 49ers basically threw at him at every turn. As did Denver. They went right passed him. They used his lack of speed to his disadvantage. He wasn't able to keep up, he's not fast enough anymore.

Tackles are a retarded stat, why do you keep bringing up tackles? I think ten people in this thread already explained to you how tackles work.

People who watch games don't quote stats only for their arguments, especially not stats we know aren't meaningful. He didn't force turnovers, he didn't get much pressure when he blitzed (he cannot even blitz much anymore), he wasn't cutting off running lanes, he wasn't covering well. Yes, he was piling on in tackles. WOW. If a guy gets by you and you run him down 20 yards away that's a tackle. If running backs get 5 yards and then you stop them with 4 other guys that's a tackle.

I can think of a few specific plays he made but that's it. In the Super Bowl he pretty much was silent because his covers were 10 yards beyond me at all times. He didn't play well. None of the Ravens main guys were that spectacular this offseason actually except Suggs in the Super Bowl until he got hurt who was creating pressure and ****ing up the running game.

Stop quoting numbers and mention situations he made important plays. There were very few.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:42 PM   #85
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Default Re: Wish people didn't make this all about the QBs

he might not have had any huge game changing moments...but not many did, can you name any from Willis?

Davis had 6 catches which is a decent game for him...that is true, I can't say Ray did his job in pass protection during the Super Bowl, but he did do his job in run support which is his main job.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:50 PM   #86
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Default Re: Wish people didn't make this all about the QBs

P.Tiddy your premise is actually correct. The premise that a QB is the sole reason for a teams success is actually incorrect. This is a cyclical thing though. For a long time before some of you were born it was about Defense, RB, then QB.

These days its all about the QB and what he does. The QB has to direct the team to victories is thought of as extraordinary and the other facets of the game is just them doing there job.

How many SB winning QB's did it mostly on there on? I can only think of one at the time I am writing this and his name is Brady. Almost every other QB had great weapons and/or a great defense (not to be taken LITERALLY).

The rule changes have made it easier for QB's to be better but I think the salary cap era kind of brings it back down to a more even playing field.

Last edited by Rameek : 02-20-2013 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:51 PM   #87
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Default Re: Wish people didn't make this all about the QBs

Quote:
Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-
he might not have had any huge game changing moments...but not many did, can you name any from Willis?

Davis had 6 catches which is a decent game for him...that is true, I can't say Ray did his job in pass protection during the Super Bowl, but he did do his job in run support which is his main job.
49ers ran all over that defense and there were a few big runs where Lewis did not do his job. They were even pointed out during the game
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:45 PM   #88
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Default Re: Wish people didn't make this all about the QBs

Gore hda 110 yards and Kap only had 62, each had a TD...that really isn't bad at all for that offense

here is Gore's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T40ZH7cgoFQ

side run, Lewis was in the middle and ran toward, didn't look like his fault though, great blocking by SF

here is Kaps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIxOrWYp-r0

same as the Gore run...around the side, not really Ray's area



not sure how this thread turned into Ray Lewis...I'm not claiming he is prime Ray...just claiming that he had a decent post season
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:48 PM   #89
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Default Re: Wish people didn't make this all about the QBs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rameek
P.Tiddy your premise is actually correct. The premise that a QB is the sole reason for a teams success is actually incorrect. This is a cyclical thing though. For a long time before some of you were born it was about Defense, RB, then QB.

These days its all about the QB and what he does. The QB has to direct the team to victories is thought of as extraordinary and the other facets of the game is just them doing there job.

How many SB winning QB's did it mostly on there on? I can only think of one at the time I am writing this and his name is Brady. Almost every other QB had great weapons and/or a great defense (not to be taken LITERALLY).

The rule changes have made it easier for QB's to be better but I think the salary cap era kind of brings it back down to a more even playing field.
it isn't all about the QB and what he does though...proof is that Kap and Flacco aren't even close to the best QBs in the game...they were on the best TEAMS

unfortunately to many though, just being in the SB = best QB...but it is false
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:50 PM   #90
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Default Re: Wish people didn't make this all about the QBs

Quote:
Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-
it isn't all about the QB and what he does though...proof is that Kap and Flacco aren't even close to the best QBs in the game...they were on the best TEAMS

unfortunately to many though, just being in the SB = best QB...but it is false

Baltimore barely even won their own division, with the Benglas a very close second.

The Ravens may have won the SB, but during the course of the regular season, there were way better teams.
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