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Old 02-02-2013, 12:44 PM   #166
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Robinson was a beast. But Id definately argue their contributions to their teams. The Bulls had to run their offense in order to get quality shots. Pippen ran their offense. I feel that more than makes up the difference in scoring

That depends. You're probably right in saying that removing Pippen would hurt Chicago more than removing Robinson would from San Antonio, but that's not a good gauge of who's actually more valuable; it's more-so a gauge of who's more valuable to their team, which isn't quite as meaningful in my opinion. The Bulls would struggle similarly to how the Cavs struggled without Lebron.

Replacing Pippen with a serviceable playmaker would hurt the Bulls less than replacing the Spurs with a serviceable center. Robinson and Shaq were better than Pippen over that stretch.

Robinson was putting 30/11/5 on 50% while playing some of the best defense the league has ever seen(for any position).

Shaq was putting up 30/12/2 on 60%.

Pippen was a better defender than Shaq, and right up there behind Robinson, but those guys had a huge edge offensively and on the boards than Pippen's game just doesn't make up for.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:06 PM   #167
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
That depends. You're probably right in saying that removing Pippen would hurt Chicago more than removing Robinson would from San Antonio, but that's not a good gauge of who's actually more valuable; it's more-so a gauge of who's more valuable to their team, which isn't quite as meaningful in my opinion.

I don't understand the distinction you are making, and how value to team is different than value. Could you please elaborate?
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:19 PM   #168
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizil
Even if you take the eras for what they were, Hondo was MORE FEARED in his era than Pip was in his scoring wise. I'm willing to bet cash on that and I'm not a gambling man. That's a fact beyond a shadow of a doubt. And at the same time, if Hondo grew up in the era Pip played in he would enjoy the advantages that the future offers. And let's face it, perimeter players like Big O, Hondo, Barry, and Baylor were ahead of their time in what they brought to the table anyway. Even moreso than many guys today, in the 2000s, 90s or 80s. The things they were showing in the 60's and 70's were big time precursors for things a lot later down the line for midsized players.
Id have to disagree Biz. Hondo played half of his career during the ABA. And the ABA took a fair amount of great players. Erving? Hawkins? Gilmore? Barry? Issel? Haywood? All great players. And even with those players playing in another league, the highest Havlicek ever got in MVP voting was fourth. Now where would Pippen had ranked if half of the top 15 players played in another league?
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:28 PM   #169
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

Some of u Pip fans are so sensitive! Many of us NEVER said Pip couldn't be the best player on a title team. But at the same time Pip simply wasn't as dominant taking a game by the throat scoring the rock as many other legendary SF's or swingmen. If you look at the most people's top 10-15 GOAT SF's, Pip is the only one NOT LEGENDARY for dominant scoring:

Bird
Bron
Hondo
Dr. J
Barry
Baylor
Pippen
Nique
Pierce
English
Dantley
King
Melo (soon to be on the list somewhere)
Durant (soon to be on the list somewhere)

There are FACTS not opinions. Pip CAN lead a team to an NBA title, but I feel it would have to be a team like the early 2000s Pistons or the late 90's-2000s Blazer teams that an out of prime Pip was on. Pippen's versatility while being a very good scorer could get the job done. It's just that in most cases give me a Durant or Bernard King over a Pippen. It's like saying Sidney Moncrief is a better player than George Gervin because Moncrief was a better all around player. Which ain't true and MOST people know Gervin was a better player than Moncrief because Iceman was MORE DOMINANT! At one time, Iceman was regarded as the 2nd GOAT SG behind West. And that's over many SG's who were better "all around players".

Last edited by bizil : 02-02-2013 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:31 PM   #170
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rysio
very underrated. some can argue he was the most important player during 6 championship runs but he will never get the credit.
This is true..

Most Important for The Bulls Championship (In order)

1. Pippen
2. PJackson
3. Jordan

Jordan was the best player in those championship but he's not the most important, Pippen and coach Phil were more important.. Jordan cant win without those guys.. He always relied on coach Phil and the triangle offense to excel.. Without those, people would remember him as a Dominique type of player.. Jordan was a system player, product of the triangle offense use by PJackson and company.. This is one of the few things that separate Mike from Kobe.. Unlike Jordan Kobe was not a system player and doesnt rely on one system.. Actually Kobe creates the system for his team to win..

Jordan = system product (Triangle Offense)
Kobe = system creator (Kobe System)

I still wonder why some people here dont consider Kobe as a GOAT candidate when theres already a lot of evidence that will proves Kobe at worst is a top 5 player of all time.. Some people here will rather act like an idiot than accept those facts.. In short Kobe haters..
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:32 PM   #171
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Id have to disagree Biz. Hondo played half of his career during the ABA. And the ABA took a fair amount of great players. Erving? Hawkins? Gilmore? Barry? Issel? Haywood? All great players. And even with those players playing in another league, the highest Havlicek ever got in MVP voting was fourth. Now where would Pippen had ranked if half of the top 15 players played in another league?

MVP votes can be tricky at times. Shaq and Kobe ONLY have 1 MVP. Steve Nash has 2. Is Nash a better player than Shaq or Kobe, HELL NO! MVP votes, while a great honor, is an opinion. And u could ask most NBA observers and they would tell u Hondo was more feared scoring wise in his era than Pippen was in his. Hell Bron ALREADY has more career points than Pippen! LOL
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:34 PM   #172
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
That depends. You're probably right in saying that removing Pippen would hurt Chicago more than removing Robinson would from San Antonio, but that's not a good gauge of who's actually more valuable; it's more-so a gauge of who's more valuable to their team, which isn't quite as meaningful in my opinion. The Bulls would struggle similarly to how the Cavs struggled without Lebron.

Replacing Pippen with a serviceable playmaker would hurt the Bulls less than replacing the Spurs with a serviceable center. Robinson and Shaq were better than Pippen over that stretch.

Robinson was putting 30/11/5 on 50% while playing some of the best defense the league has ever seen(for any position).

Shaq was putting up 30/12/2 on 60%.

Pippen was a better defender than Shaq, and right up there behind Robinson, but those guys had a huge edge offensively and on the boards than Pippen's game just doesn't make up for.
They were centers whose job was to score, rebound, and defend the paint. Pippens job was score, rebound help defend the paint, run the offense, full court press, trap. He had far more responsibilities than they did. And lets not forget Pippen did put up 22/9/6 on 49% shooting as a SF. Youre making it sound as if he only avg 4-5 boards.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:39 PM   #173
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KOBE143
This is true..

Most Important for The Bulls Championship (In order)

1. Pippen
2. PJackson
3. Jordan

Jordan was the best player in those championship but he's not the most important, Pippen and coach Phil were more important.. Jordan cant win without those guys.. He always relied on coach Phil and the triangle offense to excel.. Without those, people would remember him as a Dominique type of player.. Jordan was a system player, product of the triangle offense use by PJackson and company.. This is one of the few things that separate Mike from Kobe.. Unlike Jordan Kobe was not a system player and doesnt rely on one system.. Actually Kobe creates the system for his team to win..

Jordan = system product (Triangle Offense)
Kobe = system creator (Kobe System)

I still wonder why some people here dont consider Kobe as a GOAT candidate when theres already a lot of evidence that will proves Kobe at worst is a top 5 player of all time.. Some people here will rather act like an idiot than accept those facts.. In short Kobe haters..
Please dont come in here with this. Jordans role with the Bulls was huge. And most important. I only feel it can be ARGUED that Pippens role was on Jordans level.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:48 PM   #174
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizil
MVP votes can be tricky at times. Shaq and Kobe ONLY have 1 MVP. Steve Nash has 2. Is Nash a better player than Shaq or Kobe, HELL NO! MVP votes, while a great honor, is an opinion. And u could ask most NBA observers and they would tell u Hondo was more feared scoring wise in his era than Pippen was in his. Hell Bron ALREADY has more career points than Pippen! LOL
Like I stated. At face value one could say Hondo was more feared. But facts are facts. Allow Pippen to play 45 min and give him six extra shot attempts per game and hed be knocking on the 30 ppg door too.


I see your point about MVPs. But again he couldnt win an MVP with a good portion of the top players playing in the ABA.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:54 PM   #175
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KOBE143
This is true..

Most Important for The Bulls Championship (In order)

1. Pippen
2. PJackson
3. Jordan

Jordan was the best player in those championship but he's not the most important, Pippen and coach Phil were more important.. Jordan cant win without those guys.. He always relied on coach Phil and the triangle offense to excel.. Without those, people would remember him as a Dominique type of player.. Jordan was a system player, product of the triangle offense use by PJackson and company.. This is one of the few things that separate Mike from Kobe.. Unlike Jordan Kobe was not a system player and doesnt rely on one system.. Actually Kobe creates the system for his team to win..

Jordan = system product (Triangle Offense)
Kobe = system creator (Kobe System)

I still wonder why some people here dont consider Kobe as a GOAT candidate when theres already a lot of evidence that will proves Kobe at worst is a top 5 player of all time.. Some people here will rather act like an idiot than accept those facts.. In short Kobe haters..

U can't just say MJ is a SYSTEM PLAYER! MJ may play BETTER within a system than Kobe, but MJ is the GOAT! NO GOAT is merely a system player. That means u are limited and can only thrive in certain situations individually. Jordan did more creating than Kobe merely by the fact Kobe had Shaq. MJ had to do more for his teams to win than Kobe did in his run with Shaq.

MJ and Dominique are two totally different players. The only thing they have in common is that they are two freak athlete scoring machines. But MJ was also as complete a guard in the all around sense who has ever lived. MJ also had arguably the most complete scoring skillset of all time. I love Nique and he's my favorite player of all time. But before Pip came of age, MJ was averaging 30 pts, 8boards, and 8 assists along with shutdown D on PG, SG, and SF. So MJ was doing Pip duties ALONG with dominating scoring. MJ made life MORE EASIER for Pip than the other way around. Even though Pip made life EASIER for MJ as well. And MJ is the main reason the Bulls dominated. Phil and Scottie were important, but MJ was the MAN!


I frankly think Kobe at his peak is the 2nd best player of all time at least perimeter wise. And GOAT wise, u could say Kobe is in the top five, even though I would go MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, and Magic. So right now I have Kobe number six GOAT wise with a great case to be in the top five. and when it's all said and done, who knows where Kobe will rank.

Last edited by bizil : 02-02-2013 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:54 PM   #176
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

'97 bulls, you're my guy ... but this Pippen stuff with you is ridiculous. Do you see what your more articulated thoughts, even when you're dead wrong encourage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KOBE143
This is true..

Most Important for The Bulls Championship (In order)

1. Pippen
2. PJackson
3. Jordan

Jordan was the best player in those championship but he's not the most important, Pippen and coach Phil were more important.. Jordan cant win without those guys.. He always relied on coach Phil and the triangle offense to excel.. Without those, people would remember him as a Dominique type of player.. Jordan was a system player, product of the triangle offense use by PJackson and company.. This is one of the few things that separate Mike from Kobe.. Unlike Jordan Kobe was not a system player and doesnt rely on one system.. Actually Kobe creates the system for his team to win..

Jordan = system product (Triangle Offense)
Kobe = system creator (Kobe System)

I still wonder why some people here dont consider Kobe as a GOAT candidate when theres already a lot of evidence that will proves Kobe at worst is a top 5 player of all time.. Some people here will rather act like an idiot than accept those facts.. In short Kobe haters..
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Old 02-02-2013, 02:23 PM   #177
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizil
U can't just say MJ is a SYSTEM PLAYER! MJ may play BETTER within a system than Kobe, but MJ is the GOAT! NO GOAT is merely a system player. That means u are limited and can only thrive in certain situations individually. Jordan did more creating than Kobe merely by the fact Kobe had Shaq. MJ had to do more for his teams to win than Kobe did in his run with Shaq.

MJ and Dominique are two totally different players. The only thing they have in common is that they are two freak athlete scoring machines. But MJ was also as complete a guard in the all around sense who has ever lived. MJ also had arguably the most complete scoring skillset of all time. I love Nique and he's my favorite player of all time. But before Pip came of age, MJ was averaging 30 pts, 8boards, and 8 assists along with shutdown D on PG, SG, and SF. So MJ was doing Pip duties ALONG with dominating scoring. MJ made life MORE EASIER for Pip than the other way around. Even though Pip made life EASIER for MJ as well. And MJ is the main reason the Bulls dominated. Phil and Scottie were important, but MJ was the MAN!


I frankly think Kobe at his peak is the 2nd best player of all time at least perimeter wise. And GOAT wise, u could say Kobe is in the top five, even though I would go MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, and Magic. So right now I have Kobe number six GOAT wise with a great case to be in the top five. and when it's all said and done, who knows where Kobe will rank.
You seems like a knowledgeable and respectable poster.. I agree with some of your post.. I respect your opinion..
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Old 02-02-2013, 03:46 PM   #178
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizil
Some of u Pip fans are so sensitive! Many of us NEVER said Pip couldn't be the best player on a title team. But at the same time Pip simply wasn't as dominant taking a game by the throat scoring the rock as many other legendary SF's or swingmen. If you look at the most people's top 10-15 GOAT SF's, Pip is the only one NOT LEGENDARY for dominant scoring:

Bird
Bron
Hondo
Dr. J
Barry
Baylor
Pippen
Nique
Pierce
English
Dantley
King
Melo (soon to be on the list somewhere)
Durant (soon to be on the list somewhere)

There are FACTS not opinions. Pip CAN lead a team to an NBA title, but I feel it would have to be a team like the early 2000s Pistons or the late 90's-2000s Blazer teams that an out of prime Pip was on. Pippen's versatility while being a very good scorer could get the job done. It's just that in most cases give me a Durant or Bernard King over a Pippen. It's like saying Sidney Moncrief is a better player than George Gervin because Moncrief was a better all around player. Which ain't true and MOST people know Gervin was a better player than Moncrief because Iceman was MORE DOMINANT! At one time, Iceman was regarded as the 2nd GOAT SG behind West. And that's over many SG's who were better "all around players".

This is why I don't like the effect media, and ESPN, have had on our views of sports.

Scoring can be dominant, but defense can not be. That's how I interpreted the bolded statement.

Consider this (and note: I am NOT saying Durant is better Pip, NOR am I saying Pip is better than Durant):

Durant's ppg in his best season (so far) is roughly 30-31ppg.
Pippen's best: around 25ppg (difference of 5-6ppg)

Now consider that Pippen is arguably the second best defender OF ALL TIME, while Durant is not even the second best defender on his team,... and you mean to tell me that Pippen's exemplary can't make up a 5-6ppg difference in terms of dominance? Give me a break.

Second note: IF my interpretation was incorrect, then I apologize for assuming I knew what you meant.
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:03 PM   #179
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KOBE143
Without those, people would remember him as a Dominique type of player.

If he hadn't won, he would have been remembered in much the same way that we remember Wilt Chamberlain.

But because he won, he's on par with both Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell at the same time. He's the best individual player of all time and the most indispensable teammate of all time.

In the late eighties, people wondered when the transition would occur.

Individually, he was already acknowledged as a legend in the making at that point, and with a real team by his side, he conquered both sides of the equation and became the GOAT.

He had a mixture of individual accolades, efficiency, productivity and team success that put him on a plane that only 4 or 5 other players can claim.

And of those 4 or 5, he's at the top.
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:45 PM   #180
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

Jordan has no rings without Pippen. Pippen was the best SF in his day.
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