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Old 02-01-2013, 11:06 PM   #151
97 bulls
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

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Originally Posted by bizil
It comes down to the fact that Hondo is a better number one option than Pip was. Hondo in many ways was the precursor to Pip. Pip just added Dr.J type athletic ability and size to it. Thus the new age point forward model was born. Hill came later and now Bron is taking it to the ultimate heights. But the thing is Pip aint a true alpha dog kind of player. Hondo and Bron both excelled and dominated in that fashion better than Pip ever did.

With all of Pip's accomplishments why isn't he regarded as a top 10-15 player:

6 Time World Champ
2 time gold medalist
Arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever
Redefined SF position
All Star Game MVP
7 Time All Star
7 Time All NBA
10 Time All Defensive

The reason why is because he's a Robin instead of Batman. That's not a bad thing and Pip's still great. But the bottom line is Pip WASN'T an alpha dog, and that's the most premium asset in all of bball. The point forward skills that Pip brings to the table isn't a premium asset at SF, it's a bonus. Other than PG, premium alpha dog scoring is the premium asset, and even most of the best PG's ever have the alpha dog gene more than Pip. U don't believe me look at Magic, Big O, Isiah, Frazier, Payton, Nash, Tiny, and CP3. I would rather have ANY of those PG's willing my team to victory scoring and dishing than Pip. If Pip's DOESN'T win a ring or play with Mike is he a HOFer? Guys like Nique, Barkley, Stockton, and Ewing were clear HOFers WITHOUT a ring. Guys like Marques Johnson, Bernard King, etc. aren't in the HOF yet. King has more career points than Pippen and his peak value was higher. So Pippen WITHOUT a ring might not even be an HOFer and most CERTAINLY not 50 greatest.
The problem is again your not looking at this objectively. Pippen is penalized because he played in Jordan shadow. Not because he wasnt good enough.

Your bias shows in the way you rank players.

Either way you didnt respond to my post about Hondo. I wonder why

I'd also like to reiterate something ive said to you in the past as far as ranking players. Its dumb. Its strictly for fans. Show me a top 25 of an NBA player or coach. They dont do it. Ive seen alltime starting fives of coaches and players. Most are biased if not all. Most impressive was Karl Malone putting Pippen in his starting five cuz he was a competitor.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:18 PM   #152
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

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Originally Posted by Whoah10115
I don't agree that Pippen wasn't a Batman or #1 option. He may not have had an alpha personality, but that means little to me if you bring the impact. Durant does not have an alpha personality, at all. He has a passive-aggressive personality, but he's a scorer.


Scottie was a legit PG who could score 20+PPG and do it at a good percentage, and do it on a slow-paced team...even a slow-paced team, behind Michael. Those second 3peat Bulls were not running a lot, but they were so great that they scored more than everyone else. And he got his points.


Even in games where his shot wasn't falling, you saw Scottie attacking the basket and continuing to look for his shot, racking up high-scoring games. And he did everything. He did what you needed to win and did it while actually leading the team. He literally was the 1st option for less than 2 full years. No one has any basis to claim he wasn't a capable or winning 1st option, based on that. Other than Hakeem and MAYBE David Robinson, there wasn't a better player in that two year span. Not Charles, not Karl, not Patrick, not Shaq.

Bottom line is Durant IS AN ALPHA DOG SCORER! He's also a team player who plays within the flow of the game too! U can be both. But KD's assassin mentality and epic scoring skills DICTATES he's an alpha dog scorer clearly! He frankly has a a GREAT CHANCE to be the premier alpha dog scoring machine the SF HAS EVER SEEN! And that's saying a lot when u got Bird, Nique, King, Dr. J, Barry, English, Dantley, and Baylor in that realm too.

U can want it bad, be a very skilled player, and be a 20 PPG. That DOESN'T mean u are an alpha dog scorer. A guy like Durant or Melo is in another galaxy on LIGHT SPEED HAN SOLO style than Pippen in that realm. And a point forward kind of guy like Bron has the foot on the gas EVERY SEASON to be a threat for a scoring title putting up 27-30 a night. So even point forwards who would prefer to pass first have more alpha dog gene than Pip EVER HAD! These are FACTS NOT OPINIONS! If Pip was perceived as an alpha dog, then he would rate in the top 15-20 GOAT. He was too revolutionary and accomplished for that not too happen. U give Barkley six rings and he's the GOAT PF and in the top 10 GOAT!!! A guy like Barkley is simply on another level or two than Pippen. Pip came of age when the SF's like Bird, Nique, King, English, Dantley, Aguirre, etc. were out of the league or tailend prime. Pip came of age when the SF spot wasn't the premier position depth wise in the L. When Bird was at his peak, the SF spot was the deepest position in the L in terms of cream of the crop talent!
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:52 PM   #153
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizil
Bottom line is Durant IS AN ALPHA DOG SCORER! He's also a team player who plays within the flow of the game too! U can be both. But KD's assassin mentality and epic scoring skills DICTATES he's an alpha dog scorer clearly! He frankly has a a GREAT CHANCE to be the premier alpha dog scoring machine the SF HAS EVER SEEN! And that's saying a lot when u got Bird, Nique, King, Dr. J, Barry, English, Dantley, and Baylor in that realm too.

U can want it bad, be a very skilled player, and be a 20 PPG. That DOESN'T mean u are an alpha dog scorer. A guy like Durant or Melo is in another galaxy on LIGHT SPEED HAN SOLO style than Pippen in that realm. And a point forward kind of guy like Bron has the foot on the gas EVERY SEASON to be a threat for a scoring title putting up 27-30 a night. So even point forwards who would prefer to pass first have more alpha dog gene than Pip EVER HAD! These are FACTS NOT OPINIONS! If Pip was perceived as an alpha dog, then he would rate in the top 15-20 GOAT. He was too revolutionary and accomplished for that not too happen. U give Barkley six rings and he's the GOAT PF and in the top 10 GOAT!!! A guy like Barkley is simply on another level or two than Pippen. Pip came of age when the SF's like Bird, Nique, King, English, Dantley, Aguirre, etc. were out of the league or tailend prime. Pip came of age when the SF spot wasn't the premier position depth wise in the L. When Bird was at his peak, the SF spot was the deepest position in the L in terms of cream of the crop talent!
Kind of superficial way of looking at it dont you think? Being a great scorer is no more the end all be to winning championships than saying that that woman in your avy would make a great wife cuz she has a huge ass. Its the whole premise of build around your franchise player. And Pippen was a franchise player. The most important facet of being a franchise player is having the ability to dominate games. Then you add players that can cater to that players strengths and weaknesses.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:55 AM   #154
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
Other than Hakeem and MAYBE David Robinson, there wasn't a better player in that two year span. Not Charles, not Karl, not Patrick, not Shaq.

You're out of your mind. lol @ "maybe" DRob. Shaq also shits on Pippen, and Malone and Barkley are both EXTREMELY arguable. Ewing > Pippen too, in '94 at least.
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Old 02-02-2013, 03:50 AM   #155
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Kind of superficial way of looking at it dont you think? Being a great scorer is no more the end all be to winning championships than saying that that woman in your avy would make a great wife cuz she has a huge ass. Its the whole premise of build around your franchise player. And Pippen was a franchise player. The most important facet of being a franchise player is having the ability to dominate games. Then you add players that can cater to that players strengths and weaknesses.

For starters I never said Pip wasn't great. Pip's two greatest strengths was defense and versatility. So if u have a hole at PG, SG, or SF, Pip can fit the bill. Both on offense and at 6'7 or 6'8 on defense. Many big guards like Magic, Steve Smith, Reggie Theus, Penny, or Jalen Rose can run PG on offense. But how many can defend three or four positions very good to great too? That's the magic of Pip. A for real swiss army knife.

However, if i had to pick to build around a Nique, Durant, King, or Melo, I would rather build around them instead of Pip. Not saying Pip isn't great. Or in certain situations I wouldn't pick Pip for my team. But I can't LOGICALLY see how peak value wise Pippen is better than Durant. And on top of it Durant hasn't even peaked yet! LOL Once again, I can name SEVERAL 6'5 to 6'9 guys who were great all around players AND had more stage presence willing a team through scoring:

MJ
Kobe
Bron
Big O
Magic
Hondo
Bird
Drexler
Penny
G Hill
Barry
T Mac

The guys I listed are pretty much the PREMIER perimeter players of all time in terms of all around excellence and dominant scoring as a package in that midsized range. They were all epic all around players in addition to having more stage presence than Pip taking over scoring. And a lot of the players I mentioned played alongside legends just like Pip.
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Old 02-02-2013, 03:52 AM   #156
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
The problem is again your not looking at this objectively. Pippen is penalized because he played in Jordan shadow. Not because he wasnt good enough.

Hondo played behind Bill Russell and later on Dave Cowens too, not because he wasn't good enough.

Quote:
Most impressive was Karl Malone putting Pippen in his starting five cuz he was a competitor.

Nothing impressive about Karl Malone and his garbage analysis in that interview. Could see how biased he was ? Can you tell me why he docks a straight one on one comparison with Tim Duncan ?

Also, almost anybody can be a "competitor".
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:08 AM   #157
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
The problem is again your not looking at this objectively. Pippen is penalized because he played in Jordan shadow. Not because he wasnt good enough.

Your bias shows in the way you rank players.

Either way you didnt respond to my post about Hondo. I wonder why

I'd also like to reiterate something ive said to you in the past as far as ranking players. Its dumb. Its strictly for fans. Show me a top 25 of an NBA player or coach. They dont do it. Ive seen alltime starting fives of coaches and players. Most are biased if not all. Most impressive was Karl Malone putting Pippen in his starting five cuz he was a competitor.

On certain teams I would take Pip over guys who are cream of the crop scorers. And Pip was a beast and revolutionized bball. Anytime u are combining Hondo level all around skills with Dr. J level athletic ability and size u are special. It had NEVER been seen before at SF until Pippen did it. But all in all, I think Nique, Durant, King, or Melo are more DOMINANT players than Pip. So even though they might not be better all around, they are often times just as good or better rebounders that Pippen. And EASILY better scorers. So that has to count for something. Would u rather have Pip's defense and passing advantage over a guy like Durant or Nique's scoring and just as good or better rebounding? Pip WASN'T like MJ, Kobe, or Bron in terms of being a great scorer, passer, rebounder, and defender all in one. So give me a KD or Nique usually over a Pippen. And by the way, KD and Nique are finishing 1st runner up MVP wise to the two GOAT SF's in Bird and Bron.
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:12 AM   #158
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

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Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7
Hondo played behind Bill Russell and later on Dave Cowens too, not because he wasn't good enough.



Nothing impressive about Karl Malone and his garbage analysis in that interview. Could see how biased he was ? Can you tell me why he docks a straight one on one comparison with Tim Duncan ?

Also, almost anybody can be a "competitor".
Hondo should be ranked higher than Pippen. Hes accomplished more than him. I was refering to their scoring. The avg NBA game was much more uptempo in Hondos time as opposed to Pippens. And players played more minutes. Thats what I mean by being objective. You cant just look at Hondos and Pippens stats offensively and compare them at face value. But thats what hes doing. Bizil has an agenda. Notice hiw he wont respond
to my statement about why Hondo scored so many points? Some of the players he states hed choose over Pippen to win championships, NEVER EVEN WON A CHAMPIONSHIP. WTF? Im confident hed rather be the guy that scores thirty ppg and loses as opposed to yhe 20 ppg player who comes away with a win


Whats garbage about his opinion? He feels having Pippen on his team would give him the best chance of winning. He could be sour grapes since Pippen and the Bulls denied him of.winning two championships. And what does his view on Tim Duncan have to do with anything?
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:22 AM   #159
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Hondo should be ranked higher than Pippen. Hes accomplished more than him. I was refering to their scoring. The avg NBA game was much more uptempo in Hondos time as opposed to Pippens. And players played more minutes. Thats what I mean by being objective. You cant just look at Hondos and Pippens stats offensively and compare them at face value. But thats what hes doing. Bizil has an agenda. Notice hiw he wont respond
to my statement about why Hondo scored so many points? Some of the players he states hed choose over Pippen to win championships, NEVER EVEN WON A CHAMPIONSHIP. WTF? Im confident hed rather be the guy that scores thirty ppg and loses as opposed to yhe 20 ppg player who comes away with a win


Whats garbage about his opinion? He feels having Pippen on his team would give him the best chance of winning. He could be sour grapes since Pippen and the Bulls denied him of.winning two championships. And what does his view on Tim Duncan have to do with anything?

I have no agenda against Pip at all. I give Pip mad props UNTIL i see people saying Pip is a top 20-25 player of all time. Or that Pip peak value wise Pip was a top 3 SF. At that point I gotta state my opinion.

As far as Hondo and how many points he scored, I know one thing. And that's Hondo had more ALPHA DOG gene than Pip had. No agenda, just facts! I just don't see Pip as a top 20-25 player. And I don't like an icon like Nique getting shitted on when Pip got to play with the GOAT. Sure u may prefer Pip's all around game to Nique's. But for me, I think Nique's scoring acumen and rebounding trumps Pip's passing and defense advantage in many cases.

Last edited by bizil : 02-02-2013 at 04:27 AM.
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:24 AM   #160
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

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Originally Posted by bizil
On certain teams I would take Pip over guys who are cream of the crop scorers. And Pip was a beast and revolutionized bball. Anytime u are combining Hondo level all around skills with Dr. J level athletic ability and size u are special. It had NEVER been seen before at SF until Pippen did it. But all in all, I think Nique, Durant, King, or Melo are more DOMINANT players than Pip. So even though they might not be better all around, they are often times just as good or better rebounders that Pippen. And EASILY better scorers. So that has to count for something. Would u rather have Pip's defense and passing advantage over a guy like Durant or Nique's scoring and just as good or better rebounding? Pip WASN'T like MJ, Kobe, or Bron in terms of being a great scorer, passer, rebounder, and defender all in one. So give me a KD or Nique usually over a Pippen. And by the way, KD and Nique are finishing 1st runner up MVP wise to the two GOAT SF's in Bird and Bron.
Theres probably hundreds of wing player that I feel are better defensively than Bryant (whose overrated). Hes a very good defender, just like Pippen was a very good scorer. You seem to try to make it seem as if Pippens offense was a weakness. Again failing to be objective. If Pippens prime fell in tne 80s, theres no doubt he avg 24-25 ppg. With a high of 27-28. BECAUSE HE WOULDVE HAD MORE FGAs. For some reason that just cant sink in for you.
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:27 AM   #161
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

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Originally Posted by bizil
I have no agenda against Pip at all. I give Pip mad props UNTIL i see people saying Pip is a top 20-25 player of all time. Or that Pip peak value wise Pip was a top 3 SF. At that point I gotta state my opinion.

As far as Hondo and how many points he scored, I know one thing. And that's Hondo had more ALPHA DOG gene than Pip had. No agenda, just facts!
Math are facts bro. Try applying it. Theres no way Hondo is avg 29 ppg in 90s NBA. He wouldn't be playing 45 min, and he would get as many attempts.
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:35 AM   #162
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Math are facts bro. Try applying it. Theres no way Hondo is avg 29 ppg in 90s NBA. He wouldn't be playing 45 min, and he would get as many attempts.


Even if you take the eras for what they were, Hondo was MORE FEARED in his era than Pip was in his scoring wise. I'm willing to bet cash on that and I'm not a gambling man. That's a fact beyond a shadow of a doubt. And at the same time, if Hondo grew up in the era Pip played in he would enjoy the advantages that the future offers. And let's face it, perimeter players like Big O, Hondo, Barry, and Baylor were ahead of their time in what they brought to the table anyway. Even moreso than many guys today, in the 2000s, 90s or 80s. The things they were showing in the 60's and 70's were big time precursors for things a lot later down the line for midsized players.
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:29 AM   #163
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Whats garbage about his opinion? He feels having Pippen on his team would give him the best chance of winning. He could be sour grapes since Pippen and the Bulls denied him of.winning two championships. And what does his view on Tim Duncan have to do with anything?

When you talked about Malone wanting Pippen on his team, I thought you had watched the interview he had on the Dan Patrick Show, where he stated about he was the best PF of all-time... along with the Pippen comment.

The Duncan comment stems from the fact, that if you feel is opinion is a legit about Pippen, it doesn't feel like he's really telling the truth about his counterparts at the PF position, where he tries to dodge an one on one comparison with Duncan (calling him a center)... so it doesn't feel like he was being all that truthful about Pippen, making his opinion garbage or invalid for a better word, I guess.


I agree with your Hondo assessment.
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Old 02-02-2013, 12:16 PM   #164
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

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Originally Posted by Whoah10115
He literally was the 1st option for less than 2 full years. No one has any basis to claim he wasn't a capable or winning 1st option, based on that. Other than Hakeem and MAYBE David Robinson, there wasn't a better player in that two year span. Not Charles, not Karl, not Patrick, not Shaq.

Maybe David Robinson? Robinson was putting up 30/11/5 on 51% while also playing better defense than Pippen. David Robinson was a beast in that two year span.
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Old 02-02-2013, 12:29 PM   #165
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

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Maybe David Robinson? Robinson was putting up 30/11/5 on 51% while also playing better defense than Pippen. David Robinson was a beast in that two year span.
Robinson was a beast. But Id definately argue their contributions to their teams. The Bulls had to run their offense in order to get quality shots. Pippen ran their offense. I feel that more than makes up the difference in scoring
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