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Old 01-31-2013, 06:03 PM   #151
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

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Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7
You're kidding yourself if you think he doesn't.

Same goes with Elvin Hayes and Bob Pettit.



I'd strongly disagree on Elvin Hayes.




Other than that, this thread has gone to the point where most posters (not talking about you) aren't listening to anyone disagreeing. Time to bail.
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:13 PM   #152
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

lol "3 super teams in a row" ... That's some extreme exaggeration of those teams.

the Thunder were 55-27 ... lead by a team of 22 year olds who'd never even gotten that far
the Lakers were 57--25... same record as the Mavs. Got swept while Pau continued to suck.
the Heat were 58-24.... a team pieced together on the fly (4-5 players from that team retired afterward). Lebron got punked by the D of Marion and Stevenson. kind of flukish but earned by the Mavs.
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:23 PM   #153
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

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Originally Posted by SCdac
lol "3 super teams in a row" ... That's some extreme exaggeration of those teams.

the Thunder were 55-27 ... lead by a team of 22 year olds who'd never even gotten that far
the Lakers were 57--25... same record as the Mavs. Got swept while Pau continued to suck.
the Heat were 58-24.... a team pieced together on the fly (4-5 players from that team retired afterward). Lebron got punked by the D of Marion and Stevenson. kind of flukish but earned by the Mavs.

They weren't the favourites in 2 of those 3 matchups.

And no, the Heat weren't a "on the fly" team, they had a full training camp to work together. This wasn't the 08 Celtics or Lakers. A lot of the players that did retire were irrelevant as far main rotation players go.

But yes, it is a bit of an exaggeration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
I'd strongly disagree on Elvin Hayes.




Other than that, this thread has gone to the point where most posters (not talking about you) aren't listening to anyone disagreeing. Time to bail.

The only difference between Hayes and someone like Karl Malone, is John Stockton. Their such similar players, outside of the fact Hayes was more of jump shooter and Malone ran the floor better than any other PF, but it's a fact when you look at their careers. I don't see how Hayes doesn't score just as many points and play even longer with a John Stockton feeding him for easier baskets for 15+ years as starters together.
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:29 PM   #154
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

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Originally Posted by SCdac
lol "3 super teams in a row" ... That's some extreme exaggeration of those teams.
Well, the Lakers and the Heat were definitely considered a super team that year. And the Thunder were definitely considered a super team a year later...


Quote:
the Thunder were 55-27 ... lead by a team of 22 year olds who'd never even gotten that far
LOL, so Durant, Westbrook & Harden were just another bunch of 22 year olds...
Well if you compare that to the 2003 Mavs, who'd never even gotten that far as well, but who also lost their best player during the series...

Quote:
the Lakers were 57--25... same record as the Mavs. Got swept while Pau continued to suck.
... and the 2002-2003 Lakers were 50-32, so...


Quote:
the Heat were 58-24.... a team pieced together on the fly (4-5 players from that team retired afterward).
So the 2011 Heat weren't a super team either? Compare that to the 2003 Nets and ask yourself which team you'd rather face...
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:33 PM   #155
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

Malone just wasn't efficient in the playoffs at all. His avg. season TS% is about 5% higher than his playoff TS%. That should tell you all you need to know about the guy.

No, it means Dirk is a better SCORER. He converts a higher percentage of the opportunities he gets. Period.

At Court They are Around The Same Level. I Agree Malone Declined in the Play-Offs But At Court He Still As Good Scorer to Dirk. Dirk is a Better Shooter and 1 on 1 Player I`ll Give You That but Scorer? Around the Same Level. Lets Also Remember Malone Made a Living of Going to the FTline in his Prime He Was Much Harder To Stop and Created More Fouls than Dirk, Especially in His Prime ages 22-32.

Malone has a career playoff rebounding avg of 10.7, Dirk has a career rebounding avg of 10.3, if you factor in the higher pace in the 80s, that's a wash.

Higher Pace? Don`t Give Me That Crap Again. Malone Was a Way Better Rebounder than Dirk...Especially in his Prime Days Where he Had Better Reaction to Get the Ball, Was Leaner and Was a Workhorse. Malone Was the Better Rebounder Ages 22-32 than Dirk Ever Was. You are Comparing Career Stat Wise and His Rebounding Numbers Declined Ages 33-40. Lets See Dirk Still Average 10 RPG After Age 33 or 34...They Will Definetly Decline

Malone has a career playoff avg of 3.2 apg, Dirk 2.6.

And that's your case?

He Was a Better Passer and Was Doubled More than Dirk Ever Was in the Paint. He Was More Difficult to Stop Driving to the Basket With Power, Rumbling to the Rim With Power and Running the Break to Finish With Power

You Must Be a Mavs Fan or a German B-Ball Fan To Think Dir Was Better.

Dirk Was Pretty Much 1 Dimensional his Whole Career. A Great Scorer. Thats It.

Last edited by Round Mound : 01-31-2013 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:35 PM   #156
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7


The only difference between Hayes and someone like Karl Malone, is John Stockton. Their such similar players, outside of the fact Hayes was more of jump shooter and Malone ran the floor better than any other PF, but it's a fact when you look at their careers. I don't see how Hayes doesn't score just as many points and play even longer with a John Stockton feeding him for easier baskets for 15+ years as starters together.


As a scorer, they're similar. The difference is not only Stockton but Malone's ability to fit into systems. Hayes was a guy who thought of himself, first. He got his numbers. Shaq did a lot of that, but Shaq was a million times better and a great passer and, surprisingly, not a ballhog.


After I posted that, I looked up his stats. I was surprised at his shots to points ratio...and in his rookie season he put up over 25 shots a game.


Hayes was a good defender but an overrated one. He wasn't any kind of passer, much less a willing one. Malone did plenty of the little things. He set great picks, played as a decoy, spaced the floor not just for his jumpshot, but for his team, with his jumpshot. Also, as you said, he ran the floor better than...any player period. Stuff like that is invaluable. His intangibles were thru the roof, whereas Hayes was mostly negative.


Obviously, he was lucky to play with Unseld. Not only did they complement each other perfectly, but Unseld is Mr. Intangibles. I wouldn't rank Hayes as high as Webber, either in talent or in output. Tho he did get a title.
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:35 PM   #157
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

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Originally Posted by brain drain
So the 2011 Heat weren't a super team either? Compare that to the 2003 Nets and ask yourself which team you'd rather face...

The Heat are the only team deserving of that "Super team" tag, and even then, they proved you can't just win it on the fly throwing super stars and broken-down vets together. The Lakers at that point leading up to the playoffs (lost 5 straight) looked out of it - hardly a super team. The Thunder were inexperienced, young, and built successfully through a draft. That would be like calling the 2005 Spurs a super team. It would be an exaggeration.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:06 PM   #158
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

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Originally Posted by Round Mound
Lets Also Remember Malone Made a Living of Going to the FTline in his Prime He Was Much Harder To Stop and Created More Fouls than Dirk, Especially in His Prime ages 22-32.

Dirk has career playoff FGA of 8.8, Malone 8.9. Even if you gave Malone an avg of 11 for his first 10 seasons (which he probably hasn't, some of his worse FTA seasons came in his 20s), it still would only make him a .2 pt better scorer from the line than Dirk - Malone converted at 73.6%, Dirk at 89.3%


Malone has a career playoff rebounding avg of 10.7, Dirk has a career rebounding avg of 10.3, if you factor in the higher pace in the 80s, that's a wash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Mound
Higher Pace? Don`t Give Me That Crap Again. Malone Was a Way Better Rebounder than Dirk...Especially in his Prime Days Where he Had Better Reaction to Get the Ball, Was Leaner and Was a Workhorse. Malone Was the Better Rebounder Ages 22-32 than Dirk Ever Was. You are Comparing Career Stat Wise and His Rebounding Numbers Declined Ages 33-40. Lets See Dirk Still Average 10 RPG After Age 33 or 34...They Will Definetly Decline

That's ridiculous. Dirk has a playoff TRB% of 14.3%, Malone 15.6.
Now, if you look at defensive rebounding, Malone's at 23.3, Dirk's 24.6.
Sure, If you limit Malone to x seasons, his numbers are better. Same is true for Dirk, whose playoff rebounding rate dropped in the 2010 and hasn't recovered since. So, Malone certainly had a much better longevity as a rebounder. But if you want to measure their rebounding ability, you need to compare defensive rebounding (because Dirk plays farther from the basket on offense) and playoffs (because that's when it counts). And apart from one single freak season by Malone (35 DRB%, in a 5 game run), the DRB% are astonishingly similar, Dirk even has more seasons in the >25 DRB% range than Malone has.
Quote:
Malone has a career playoff avg of 3.2 apg, Dirk 2.6.

And that's your case?

He Was a Better Passer and Was Doubled More than Dirk Ever Was. He Was More Difficult to Stop Driving to the Basket With Power, Rumbling to the Rim With Power and Running the Break to Finish With Power
Well, if that was the case, the numbers would reflect it. They don't. Malone only had .6 apg more and he had significantly worse efficiency. And the fact that Malone's scoring efficiency dropped by a whopping 5% on average tells me that he was rather easy to game plan against. Compare that to Dirk who doesn't have this drop between reg season and post season.

Quote:
You Must Be a Mavs Fan or a German B-Ball Fan To Think Dir Was Better.

Dirk Was Pretty Much 1 Dimensional his Whole Career. A Great Scorer. Thats It.
You must be a victim of your own stereotypes. Over his career, Dirk has typically provided 3 important things for his teams: 1) very efficient volume scoring, 2) pulling a big defender out of the paint, clearing paths for slashers to the basket and 3) pretty damn good rebunding, especially in the playoffs.


If Dirk was just another efficient scorer and nothing else, and if he was just as bad a defender as some say, his results would be similar to Kevin Martin's. They aren't.

Last edited by brain drain : 01-31-2013 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:24 PM   #159
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

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Originally Posted by SCdac
The Heat are the only team deserving of that "Super team" tag, and even then, they proved you can't just win it on the fly throwing super stars and broken-down vets together. The Lakers at that point leading up to the playoffs (lost 5 straight) looked out of it - hardly a super team. It would be an exaggeration.

Had Dallas not come along and beaten them, they'd have proven that you can just win it on the fly throwing super stars and broken-down vets together.

Same thing with the Lakers. Before the series against Dallas, practically everyone was betting on the Lakers, lots of people even predicted a sweep. Turning around after the series and claiming that they had sucked anyway is a litte rich. Following that logic, you can't win against a good opponent because your winning proves the opponed wasn't good.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:26 PM   #160
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

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Originally Posted by brain drain
What?
So 3peat Shaq+Kobe Lakers + Nelson Mavs without best player for most of series + a bunch of medicre teams > 2peat Kobe/Pau/Bynum - Lakers plus Durant / Westbrook / Harden / Ibaka OKC plus LBJ / Wade / Bosh - Heat LOL!

Duncan did more different things. However he didn't dominate 4th quarter scoring against 3 super teams in a row.

You call 11 OKC, 11 LAL and 11 MIA 3 super teams? Maybe only MIA qualifies - and still with a coach and superstar who had never won. 11 OKC was not a superstar team - Westbrooke in particular has grown tremendously over the past 2 years and look at how much improvement Ibaka has made just over the past summer. They are a superstar team NOW but not 2 years ago. LAL - I seem to recall a lot of Peja killing them from 3 pt land and Barea penetrating to the basket (and in the 4th quarter) at will.

What's so important about the 4th quarter? Don't the points, rebounds, assists and blocks in the first 3 quarters also count?

Think about switching Dirk onto the 03 Spurs and putting Duncan on the 11 Mavs. What do you think would happen? A lot of wide open 3s for Terry, Kidd and Peja and a defensive beast besides Chandler. Meanwhile, 38 year old DRob only played 23 mins in 03 playoffs - who's gonna protect the paint the rest of the time - Dirk? Yeah, I totally see Dirk guarding Prime Shaq (sarcasm).

You've also discounted each player's team mates - young, inexperienced 1st and 2nd year players (2nd, 3rd, 4th options) vs a bunch of hardened, experienced veterans.

Last edited by rmt : 01-31-2013 at 07:32 PM.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:43 PM   #161
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

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Originally Posted by brain drain
Dirk has career playoff FGA of 8.8, Malone 8.9. Even if you gave Malone an avg of 11 for his first 10 seasons (which he probably hasn't, some of his worse FTA seasons came in his 20s), it still would only make him a .2 pt better scorer from the line than Dirk - Malone converted at 73.6%, Dirk at 89.3%


Malone has a career playoff rebounding avg of 10.7, Dirk has a career rebounding avg of 10.3, if you factor in the higher pace in the 80s, that's a wash.



That's ridiculous. Dirk has a playoff TRB% of 14.3%, Malone 15.6.
Now, if you look at defensive rebounding, Malone's at 23.3, Dirk's 24.6.
Sure, If you limit Malone to x seasons, his numbers are better. Same is true for Dirk, whose playoff rebounding rate dropped in the 2010 and hasn't recovered since. So, Malone certainly had a much better longevity as a rebounder. But if you want to measure their rebounding ability, you need to compare defensive rebounding (because Dirk plays farther from the basket on offense) and playoffs (because that's when it counts). And apart from one single freak season by Malone (35 DRB%, in a 5 game run), the DRB% are astonishingly similar, Dirk even has more seasons in the >25 DRB% range than Malone has.

Well, if that was the case, the numbers would reflect it. They don't. Malone only had .6 apg more and he had significantly worse efficiency. And the fact that Malone's scoring efficiency dropped by a whopping 5% on average tells me that he was rather easy to game plan against. Compare that to Dirk who doesn't have this drop between reg season and post season.


You must be a victim of your own stereotypes. Over his career, Dirk has typically provided 3 important things for his teams: 1) very efficient volume scoring, 2) pulling a big defender out of the paint, clearing paths for slashers to the basket and 3) pretty damn good rebunding, especially in the playoffs.


If Dirk was just another efficient scorer and nothing else, and if he was just as bad a defender as some say, his results would be similar to Kevin Martin's. They aren't.

Do The Stats from Ages 22-33 and Then Compare. You are Using a Comparission Including Malone Ages 33-40. When He Was Passed His Prime.

You Keep Mentioning Pace. Charles Barkley had a 33 Rebound Game in 1997 The Same Pace as Today. Strangely He Did Not Have a 33 Rebound Game in the 80s Although He Did Lead the League in Rebounding in 1987. The Pace Factor You Use Is Nonsense.

You are Definetly German or a Mavs Fan.

The Only Things Dirk Does Better than Malone is FT Shooting, 3-Point Shooting 1 on 1 Off the Dribble. I Admit To That. Other Than That:

Malone Was Better Post Player
Malone Was a Better Rim Attacker
Malone Was a Better Open Court Finisher
Malone Whent`to the Line More in his Hay Day
Malone Was a Better Rebounder
Malone Was a Better Passer
Malone Was a Better Defender
Malone Was a More Intimidating Presence
Malone Was Stronger, Faster, Quicker, More Potent and Scarier.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:47 PM   #162
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

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Originally Posted by brain drain
Had Dallas not come along and beaten them, they'd have proven that you can just win it on the fly throwing super stars and broken-down vets together.

Same thing with the Lakers. Before the series against Dallas, practically everyone was betting on the Lakers, lots of people even predicted a sweep. Turning around after the series and claiming that they had sucked anyway is a litte rich. Following that logic, you can't win against a good opponent because your winning proves the opponed wasn't good.

Following your logic, whoever is favored to win is in actuality the "best team", not the winner. That's absurd. It leads one to believe games are won on paper.

"Had Dallas not beaten the Heat, the Heat would have won"? That statement proves nothing. The bottom line is the Mavs did not beat "3 super teams" in a row. That hyperbolic description of the Mavs' competition is a joke and the crutch used to prop Dirk up.

Tim Duncan and Hakeem clearly had a more multi-dimensional, integral, and impacting presence on their respective teams. Mavs were disassembled and promptly knocked out of the first round after their championship, just like what happened before they had Tyson Chandler.
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:28 PM   #163
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

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I'm implying that he won his championship when his biggest competitors at his position (big men in general) were all getting old and trailing off. Do you think it's coincidence?

So I take it you are a firm believer that the reason why Shaq won his titles is because their were no big men to contend with? No Ewing/DRob/Hakeem/Jabbar/Wilt/Russell.... that he won because the center was dead?
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:07 PM   #164
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

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Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight
So I take it you are a firm believer that the reason why Shaq won his titles is because their were no big men to contend with? No Ewing/DRob/Hakeem/Jabbar/Wilt/Russell.... that he won because the center was dead?

Well, the comparison of arguably the most dominant player ever to a big man who had to work to shake the soft label isn't entirely legit. Shaq played in a big man's league, a more physical league and lost to Hakeem, etc, while Dirk is a perimeter type big man who won in a Durant-FT fest kind of era.

None the less. Yes, I do think Hakeem Olajuwon/Robinsons/etc career's (when they were in their relative primes) did have an impact on Shaq and every other player in the league. In other words, I do think timing is a factor in the NBA both on a macro and micro level and, the Mavs seized the moment. They did it in convincing fashion too, nobody doubts that.

But it's not unreasonable to think it took Dirk 13 seasons in the league to win a championship, not necessarily because of lack of "championship-level talent " or weak teammates, but because of continuous bouts with Duncan, Shaq, prime Webber, peak Amare (05), etc (at last teams lead by those players). Meaning, as the competition lead by elite big men died down, Dirk was definitely was hungry and showed it alongside his revamped '11 squad (of which none of had a ring). Albeit, he did it a few years after his MVP season, and about a decade after his first AS game. But it's alot better than nothing.

Have to wonder how many championships prime Barkley or Malone could have won in this era though.
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:07 AM   #165
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

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Originally Posted by Whoah10115
Hayes was a good defender but an overrated one. He wasn't any kind of passer, much less a willing one. Malone did plenty of the little things. He set great picks, played as a decoy, spaced the floor not just for his jumpshot, but for his team, with his jumpshot. Also, as you said, he ran the floor better than...any player period. Stuff like that is invaluable. His intangibles were thru the roof, whereas Hayes was mostly negative.

All good points there, but you can also say the same thing about Malone's defense being overrated, as well.

The main thing of them being very similar is also how they are very overrated as players.
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