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Old 01-31-2013, 04:06 PM   #136
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmt
Dirk's run was indeed impressive but mostly on the offensive end of the court. Duncan was impressive on BOTH ends of the court. Chandler was the one manning the paint (for which he was "rewarded" the next year with DPOY). As far as the competition is concerned, Lebron (who had won nothing as yet) and the newly-formed Heat vs Shaq/Kobe/Phil Jackson and the 3-time defending champions?

The experience difference in their team mates is also important. 2nd year Parker, 2nd year SJax, rookie Manu, 38 yr old DRob vs Terry, Kidd, Chandler, Marion, Barea. IMO, Duncan had to do a lot more heavy lifting than Dirk.

03 playoff Duncan/ 11 playoff Dirk
24.7 pts / 27.7 pts
15.4 rebs / 8.1 rebs
5.3 assts / 2.5 assts
3.3 blks / 0.6 blks
52.9 FG% / 48.5 FG%

Duncan led the Spurs in points, rebounds, assists and blocks. Dirk led the Mavs in points and FT%.

Yeah, but you conveniently left out some facts:

03 playoff Duncan/ 11 playoff Dirk
AGE 26 / 32
57.7 TS% / 60.9 TS% (What use is posting raw fg% when one player takes 0.3 3pa and the other 2.4 3pa)

And last but not least
Opposing teams Spurs 2003:
1st round Suns with Marbury & Rookie Amare as best players
2nd round Lakers (defending champs)
3rd round mavs without Dirk after 1.5 games
Finals Leastern Nets

vs

Opposing Teams for Mavs 2011
1st round Portland
2nd round Lakers (defending champs)
3rd round OKC
Finals Big-Three Miami


So we've got
- 2 playoff runs with a rather big difference as far as the quality of opposing teams is concerned (how many allstar caliber forwards did Duncan face during the 2003 run? How many "superteams"?),
- 2 players at completely different ages (go and check Duncan's playoff stats at 32 years)
- and two completely different ways how these players helped their teams win (Duncan did everything, Dirk dominated the 4th quarters in historical fashion).

So, what conclusion are you trying to draw from this great comparison?

Last edited by brain drain : 01-31-2013 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:10 PM   #137
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Mound
Scoring Wise They are Very Similar....With Dirk Being a Better Pure Shooter.


That's ridiculous. When you've got two scorers who score at a similar rate, but one converts at a 6% higher clip, that's not "very similar" at all.

And Malone came into a league that hat a league wide average fg% of about 49%, whereas Dirk came into the league when the avg fg% was 44%. Plus Malone had Stockton. Similar scorers, my a$$.

Last edited by brain drain : 01-31-2013 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:23 PM   #138
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

Quote:
Originally Posted by brain drain
So we've got
- 2 playoff runs with a rather big difference as far as the quality of opposing teams is concerned (how many allstar caliber forwards did Duncan face during the 2003 run? How many "superteams"?),
- 2 players at completely different ages (go and check Duncan's playoff stats at 32 years)
- and two completely different ways how these players helped their teams win (Duncan did everything, Dirk dominated the 4th quarters in historical fashion).

So, what conclusion are you trying to draw from this great comparison?

How many All-star caliber big men did Dirk face? lol ... LaMarcus Aldridge? Serge Ibaka? Chris Bosh?

It's funny how the best defenders on the Mavs get no credit (Chandler, Marion, Kidd, and Stevenson)... You know, the guys who defended the best players Mavs went up against.

Duncan did in fact do everything (two way player). And it's really only paralleled by Hakeem when considering supporting cast.

Dirk won his championship when the best bigs of his era were all retiring or on their last legs... Duncan, Garnett, Shaq... think it's any coincidence?
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:26 PM   #139
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

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Originally Posted by SCdac
Dirk won his championship when the best bigs of his era were all retiring or on their last legs... Duncan, Garnett, Shaq... think it's any coincidence?

Are you trying to imply that Dirk and the Mavs only won the title because of the extremely weak competition they faced? That's a good one...
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:27 PM   #140
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

Quote:
Originally Posted by brain drain
That's ridiculous. When you've got two scorers who score at a similar rate, but one converts at a 6% higher clip, that's not "very similar" at all.

And Malone came into a league that hat a league wide average fg% of about 49%, whereas Dirk came into the league when the avg fg% was 44%. Plus Malone had Stockton. Similar scorers, my a$$.

They Shot at Higher FG% in the 80s because the League was Stacked and Every Team Had Great Role Players, Shooters, Creators, Passeres and 2 All Stars Per Team

Also....Karl In Young Days Was a Master Finisher, Runner of Breaks and Pounded His Way With Strength For Points. As the Years Whent By He Was Less Mobile and Slower So He Developed a Very Good Post Game and Mid Range Shot and Was Less Physical.

Both Dirk and Malone Shot around the same Level at Play 46 or 47%. Both Where Not Efficiency Scorers. TS%? I Already Mentioned Dirk Was a Better Shooter: FT Shooter and 3-Point Shooter Are In It.

Was Dirk a Better Defender than Malone?

Was Dirk a Better Rebounder than Malone?

Was Dirk a Better Passer than Malone?

I Think Not.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:31 PM   #141
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

Quote:
Originally Posted by brain drain
Are you trying to imply that Dirk and the Mavs only won the title because of the extremely weak competition they faced? That's a good one...

I'm implying that he won his championship when his biggest competitors at his position (big men in general) were all getting old and trailing off. Do you think it's coincidence?

Did Dirk guard Lebron? Did he guard Kobe? Did he guard Durant? ... Lets give some credit where it's due. The guys who allowed Dirk to be a one-dimensional force of a scorer.

Duncan was like Dirk + Chandler combined... best offensive and defensive player on the floor.

The competition argument is fair, but Duncan went up against the best center of all time in 2003 and the best dynasty of the last decade... While Dirk beat what, crappy Pau Gasol (who shat the bed even before the second round) and Chris Bosh? lol ... It's Marion who deserves the lion's share of credit for getting in Lebron's head.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:33 PM   #142
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCdac
How many All-star caliber big men did Dirk face? lol ... LaMarcus Aldridge? Serge Ibaka? Chris Bosh?

All of those players are all-star caliber. Even Pau Gasol, who up until the playoffs was having a solid year.

Quote:
Dirk won his championship when the best bigs of his era were all retiring or on their last legs... Duncan, Garnett, Shaq... think it's any coincidence?

Still beat the defending back to back Lakers, the up and coming Thunder, and the Big 3 on the Heat, the one player everyone was hyping to be the greatest player of all-time before the Finals in LeBron James.

And it's no coincidence what so ever. The Mavericks weren't supposed to win a title that year.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:34 PM   #143
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCdac
I'm implying that he won his championship when his biggest competitors at his position (big men in general) were all getting old and trailing off. Do you think it's coincidence?

They weren't even supposed to be in the finals that year.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:35 PM   #144
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

Quote:
Why is Dirk Name Even Mentined With Charles, Karl and Tim?

You're kidding yourself if you think he doesn't.

Same goes with Elvin Hayes and Bob Pettit.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:37 PM   #145
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCdac
How many All-star caliber big men did Dirk face? lol ... LaMarcus Aldridge? Serge Ibaka? Chris Bosh?

Plus Gasol & Bynum. It was certainly a stronger competition than what Duncan faced in 2003, which was essentially Shaq, 1.5 games of Dirk, Rookie Amare and a bunch of scrubs.


Quote:
It's funny how the best defenders on the Mavs get no credit (Chandler, Marion, Kidd, and Stevenson)... You know, the guys who defended the best players Mavs went up against.

... and players like David Robinson and Bruce Bowen totally didn't do anything in the 2003 playoffs either....

Quote:
Duncan did in fact do everything (two way player). And it's really only paralleled by Hakeem when considering supporting cast.
Yeah, but he also did it agains historically weak competition by western conference standards. Had to go through one great team at full strength (Lakers) and that was basically it.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:38 PM   #146
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

Quote:
Originally Posted by brain drain
Yeah, but you conveniently left out some facts:

03 playoff Duncan/ 11 playoff Dirk
AGE 26 / 32
57.7 TS% / 60.9 TS% (What use is posting raw fg% when one player takes 0.3 3pa and the other 2.4 3pa)

And last but not least
Opposing teams Spurs 2003:
1st round Suns with Marbury & Rookie Amare as best players
2nd round Lakers (defending champs)
3rd round mavs without Dirk after 1.5 games
Finals Leastern Nets

vs

Opposing Teams for Mavs 2011
1st round Portland
2nd round Lakers (defending champs)
3rd round OKC
Finals Big-Three Miami


So we've got
- 2 playoff runs with a rather big difference as far as the quality of opposing teams is concerned (how many allstar caliber forwards did Duncan face during the 2003 run? How many "superteams"?),
- 2 players at completely different ages (go and check Duncan's playoff stats at 32 years)
- and two completely different ways how these players helped their teams win (Duncan did everything, Dirk dominated the 4th quarters in historical fashion).

So, what conclusion are you trying to draw from this great comparison?

You may go on about competition although IMO a 3-time defending champion with 2 top 10 players and GOAT coach is better competition than a never-won Lebron James and Spoelstra and I can go on about quality/age/experience of team mates. Your own words above (bolded and underlined by me) are the answer. This comparison is about each respective playoff runs and I think it's clear that Duncan did more for the 03 Spurs than Dirk did for the 11 Mavs.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:41 PM   #147
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

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Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7
All of those players are all-star caliber. Even Pau Gasol, who up until the playoffs was having a solid year.


Still beat the defending back to back Lakers, the up and coming Thunder, and the Big 3 on the Heat, the one player everyone was hyping to be the greatest player of all-time before the Finals in LeBron James.

And it's no coincidence what so ever. The Mavericks weren't supposed to win a title that year.

you think if prime Shaq or Duncan are in the league the 2011 Mavs get through their team? .... doubtful
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:49 PM   #148
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCdac
you think if prime Shaq or Duncan are in the league the 2011 Mavs get through their team? .... doubtful

Nowitzki never ran into prime Shaq to get to the Finals. He got through Duncan, although he was playing hurt in the 06 series, but then you look back the 03 series, what if Nowtizki doesn't miss the rest of that series ?

Either way, their road in 2011 certainly wasn't easy.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:56 PM   #149
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Mound
They Shot at Higher FG% in the 80s because the League was Stacked and Every Team Had Great Role Players, Shooters, Creators, Passeres and 2 All Stars Per Team

Also....Karl In Young Days Was a Master Finisher, Runner of Breaks and Pounded His Way With Strength For Points. As the Years Whent By He Was Less Mobile and Slower So He Developed a Very Good Post Game and Mid Range Shot and Was Less Physical.
Malone just wasn't efficient in the playoffs at all. His avg. season TS% is about 5% higher than his playoff TS%. That should tell you all you need to know about the guy.

Quote:
Both Dirk and Malone Shot around the same Level at Play 46 or 47%. Both Where Not Efficiency Scorers. TS%? I Already Mentioned Dirk Was a Better Shooter: FT Shooter and 3-Point Shooter Are In It.
No, it means Dirk is a better SCORER. He converts a higher percentage of the opportunities he gets. Period.

Quote:
Was Dirk a Better Defender than Malone?

Was Dirk a Better Rebounder than Malone?

Was Dirk a Better Passer than Malone?

I Think Not.

Malone has a career playoff rebounding avg of 10.7, Dirk has a career rebounding avg of 10.3, if you factor in the higher pace in the 80s, that's a wash.

Malone has a career playoff avg of 3.2 apg, Dirk 2.6.

And that's your case?
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Old 01-31-2013, 05:02 PM   #150
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Default Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

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Originally Posted by rmt
You may go on about competition although IMO a 3-time defending champion with 2 top 10 players and GOAT coach is better competition than a never-won Lebron James and Spoelstra and I can go on about quality/age/experience of team mates.
What?
So 3peat Shaq+Kobe Lakers + Nelson Mavs without best player for most of series + a bunch of medicre teams > 2peat Kobe/Pau/Bynum - Lakers plus Durant / Westbrook / Harden / Ibaka OKC plus LBJ / Wade / Bosh - Heat LOL!

Quote:
Your own words above (bolded and underlined by me) are the answer. This comparison is about each respective playoff runs and I think it's clear that Duncan did more for the 03 Spurs than Dirk did for the 11 Mavs.
Duncan did more different things. However he didn't dominate 4th quarter scoring against 3 super teams in a row.

Last edited by brain drain : 01-31-2013 at 05:05 PM.
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