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Old 01-12-2013, 10:04 AM   #16
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Default Re: Kobe's legacy if Lakers don't make playoffs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
I never said that Kobe playing better defense wouldn't help. I just said that he's not the main reason. The primary reason is D'Antoni and a team full of old, slower players who as a whole aren't playing up to their potential defensively, Kobe included, but he's one of many. They'd still suck defensively with any other shooting guard. Hell, they sucked defensively even with a top shot blocker and rebounder. And if Kobe did play harder defensively, it'd likely take away from his offense. It's not just Kobe who does this. Most superstar offensive players do. Kobe has had to put up 30/5/5 and he's played 39 mpg at 34 years old in his 17th season. Expecting him to do much more would be crazy.

And yes, Howard and especially Gasol have performed far below what was expected. Kobe has exceeded expectations.

So Lakers are not performing because they are old, and Kobe can't be blamed because he is also old and putting up good stats? Because he is putting up good stats, he is doing no wrong?

The problem with the premise of your argument is that neither Howard nor Gasol are top 10 greatest of all time. They don't have an extensive of history being carried to multiple championships. Kobe does; just check out the number of FMVP awards compared to the number of championships he has "won." You won't find another player in the TOP 10 GOAT debate with a worse ratio.
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:08 AM   #17
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Default Re: Kobe's legacy if Lakers don't make playoffs?

On Kobe's defense I found this to be interesting. However, I haven't seen many Laker games this year. If the post above is an accurate description of Kobe lack of effort defensively than I have to agree that he is a huge liability to his defense.
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:08 AM   #18
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Default Re: Kobe's legacy if Lakers don't make playoffs?

It'll be a little stain on his legacy. He'll still be top 10 in my opinion.
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:36 AM   #19
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Default Re: Kobe's legacy if Lakers don't make playoffs?

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Originally Posted by DMV2
Only on this site though that he gets discredited. In the real world and in the media, Kobe's gotten enough credit, even more so than Gasol and at times Shaq(prob because he's not a winf player and people were looking for the new Jordan) too. Kobe was on basketball magazines with captions of "Best basketball player in the world, and he's only 22."

He has definitely gotten enough credit through out his career, which benefited a lot from his big's. His poor performances doesn't get enough criticism in my opinion. I never saw any media personnel blame him for that 2004 Finals lost. He deserves the blame as much as the Pistons deserving credit for that series win.

Kobe deserves more credit than Gasol because he was the Lakers best player. Gasol got a lot of credit for his contributions, although he hasn't been given a pass since, and I'd say he has become underappreciated. Not that there's much to appreciate about his play this year, though.

Kobe seldom got more credit than Shaq during those years. From some, maybe, but the majority recognized that Shaq was the man on the Lakers, especially opposing coaches, GMs, players as well as Phil himself. This is one of the reasons Kobe wanted to win without Shaq.

He got a ton of blame for the '04 finals, Kobe was heavily criticized throughout '04 and '05. The reason most don't bring it up now is because Kobe won 2 more rings. Everyone has failures, but most people recognize the successes more, and rightfully so. You can't win every year, or play well every series. How many people bring up Magic shooting 38% and airballing the potential series-winning shot on a play designed for Kareem vs the Rockets in '81? Or the "Tragic Johnson" series? They look at the 5 rings because only a few players could do that. How many people bring up Bird's play vs Milwaukee in '83 or the series he shot 35% in vs Detroit in '88?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kurple
they were horrible with Mike Brown as well.

and the celtics and mavs managed to play great defense with old players. lame exuce

Yeah, and the Celtics and Mavs don't try to run either. They played 5 games under Mike Brown. Brown was an idiot for trying to put in the Princeton offense, an offense that I really doubt he understood enough, and I never thought he was a great coach before that. But, he's better than D'Antoni, and I guarantee they'd be a better team right now with Brown instead of D'Antoni. By the way, the Mavs defense has hardly been stellar this year, and while the Celtics are picking it up lately, they haven't looked like the dominant defensive team they've been in the past most of the season. But a big difference is that those teams are coached by two of the game's best coaches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noob cake
So Lakers are not performing because they are old, and Kobe can't be blamed because he is also old and putting up good stats? Because he is putting up good stats, he is doing no wrong?

The problem with the premise of your argument is that neither Howard nor Gasol are top 10 greatest of all time. They don't have an extensive of history being carried to multiple championships. Kobe does; just check out the number of FMVP awards compared to the number of championships he has "won." You won't find another player in the TOP 10 GOAT debate with a worse ratio.

You have real reading comprehension problems, or you're trying to twist my words because you don't have a good counter. I never said Kobe is doing no wrong, but I also said he's played better than anyone expected. I brought up his age because they're asking him to play so many minutes and do so much offensively that there's no way he could play up to his potential defensively at the same time. Even Jordan handed over more responsibilities to Pippen during the second 3peat. Pippen became the designated double teamer and the team's best help defender, which had been Jordan during the first 3peat. He also took on more of the ball-handling duties compared to Jordan. That was the biggest difference between first 3peat Jordan and second 3peat Jordan, he didn't quite have the same energy so he was a little less active outside of scoring. He still played better than Kobe is defensively, but he was a better defender to begin with and a better player. How many players can drop 30+, play about 40 mpg, set up teammates and still have the energy to play elite defense? Prime Jordan, and if you're expecting prime Jordan, particularly from a 34 year old Kobe, you've set the bar unreasonably high.

Kobe could play better than he is defensively, but not enough to make a huge difference, and certainly not without taking away from his offense, which they've depended so heavily on. The Lakers defensive problems go far beyond Kobe. His defense could be viewed as part of the problem, but not the main problem. You have to look at D'Antoni who has always been known as a terrible defensive coach, and you also have to look at the system he's stubbornly insisted on that just doesn't fit their team.

Kobe hasn't been "carried" to a single ring either. That just shows your bias. Finals MVP or not, he was the second best player in both the 2001 and 2002 playoffs. His 2001 playoff run is something most players can only dream of doing. By the way, he got back to back finals MVPs. Not everyone does that you know.
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:36 AM   #20
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Default Re: Kobe's legacy if Lakers don't make playoffs?

If the Lakers don't make the playoffs this season, Kobe's legacy is still safe. He is still one of the top ten players of all-time. Still one of the greatest Lakers of all-time. Still a top competitor. His legacy is safe.
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:03 AM   #21
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Default Re: Kobe's legacy if Lakers don't make playoffs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Kobe deserves more credit than Gasol because he was the Lakers best player. Gasol got a lot of credit for his contributions, although he hasn't been given a pass since, and I'd say he has become underappreciated. Not that there's much to appreciate about his play this year, though.

Kobe seldom got more credit than Shaq during those years. From some, maybe, but the majority recognized that Shaq was the man on the Lakers, especially opposing coaches, GMs, players as well as Phil himself. This is one of the reasons Kobe wanted to win without Shaq.

He got a ton of blame for the '04 finals, Kobe was heavily criticized throughout '04 and '05. The reason most don't bring it up now is because Kobe won 2 more rings. Everyone has failures, but most people recognize the successes more, and rightfully so. You can't win every year, or play well every series. How many people bring up Magic shooting 38% and airballing the potential series-winning shot on a play designed for Kareem vs the Rockets in '81? Or the "Tragic Johnson" series? They look at the 5 rings because only a few players could do that. How many people bring up Bird's play vs Milwaukee in '83 or the series he shot 35% in vs Detroit in '88?



Yeah, and the Celtics and Mavs don't try to run either. They played 5 games under Mike Brown. Brown was an idiot for trying to put in the Princeton offense, an offense that I really doubt he understood enough, and I never thought he was a great coach before that. But, he's better than D'Antoni, and I guarantee they'd be a better team right now with Brown instead of D'Antoni. By the way, the Mavs defense has hardly been stellar this year, and while the Celtics are picking it up lately, they haven't looked like the dominant defensive team they've been in the past most of the season. But a big difference is that those teams are coached by two of the game's best coaches.



You have real reading comprehension problems, or you're trying to twist my words because you don't have a good counter. I never said Kobe is doing no wrong, but I also said he's played better than anyone expected. I brought up his age because they're asking him to play so many minutes and do so much offensively that there's no way he could play up to his potential defensively at the same time. Even Jordan handed over more responsibilities to Pippen during the second 3peat. Pippen became the designated double teamer and the team's best help defender, which had been Jordan during the first 3peat. He also took on more of the ball-handling duties compared to Jordan. That was the biggest difference between first 3peat Jordan and second 3peat Jordan, he didn't quite have the same energy so he was a little less active outside of scoring. He still played better than Kobe is defensively, but he was a better defender to begin with and a better player. How many players can drop 30+, play about 40 mpg, set up teammates and still have the energy to play elite defense? Prime Jordan, and if you're expecting prime Jordan, particularly from a 34 year old Kobe, you've set the bar unreasonably high.

Kobe could play better than he is defensively, but not enough to make a huge difference, and certainly not without taking away from his offense, which they've depended so heavily on. The Lakers defensive problems go far beyond Kobe. His defense could be viewed as part of the problem, but not the main problem. You have to look at D'Antoni who has always been known as a terrible defensive coach, and you also have to look at the system he's stubbornly insisted on that just doesn't fit their team.

Kobe hasn't been "carried" to a single ring either. That just shows your bias. Finals MVP or not, he was the second best player in both the 2001 and 2002 playoffs. His 2001 playoff run is something most players can only dream of doing. By the way, he got back to back finals MVPs. Not everyone does that you know.

Classic Kobestan response. Push off any responsibility and attack Jordan to bridge the gap. Sir, it is you that is incapable of reading.
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:07 AM   #22
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Default Re: Kobe's legacy if Lakers don't make playoffs?

Wouldn't hurt his legacy at all. He's playing for gravy at this point. He's already proven everything. Any reasonable person would agree.

This team isn't that good anyway. Pau is probably one of the worst starting PF's in the league at this point. lol at mentioning him like it's still the same Pau from 2010.
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:13 AM   #23
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Default Re: Kobe's legacy if Lakers don't make playoffs?

Kobe has never and will never be a good leader, end of story.

There's more to being a leader than simply scoring and telling your teammates to put on "big boy pants".

He doesn't hold himself accountable, his teammates clearly don't respect him as much as he thinks or others perceive him to be.

Like some, Kobe's got carried to rings on the backs of bigs and refs. Great talent errr….. scorer true. But not a top 10 (never was in my eyes) like most automatically put him in mainly cause they don't wanna be considered 'haters'.

That's another thing…. why does Kobe have so many so called 'haters'?

Could it be due to him not being as good as his hype? they rate him at one level on mostly hype, but when one looks at it more objectively he's actually at a couple notches lower. Yet we/they're considered 'haters'?

Shit, we see this within most games all the time. Announcers are always saying "He's an assassin, the best closer in the game!" and what happens next? BRICK after BRICK, yet they continue to spew the same shit over and over during that same game! or how about this one "Nobody makes tougher shots in the league" yet they fail to point out the obvious…. he takes them more than anybody else in history, and even then the percentages aren't in his favor. He'd miss 6 and makes 2 and he's hailed for it

His legacy for 'me' is still where it is, somewhere in the 20s. I'm more impressed with his determination and longevity than anything else. His play on the court is still one dimensional and selfish. The most overrated defender of all time and one of the most overrated athletes of all time (due to the hype).
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:17 AM   #24
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Default Re: Kobe's legacy if Lakers don't make playoffs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noob cake
Classic Kobestan response. Push off any responsibility and attack Jordan to bridge the gap. Sir, it is you that is incapable of reading.

Read his post again. He's not attacking Jordan at all.
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:18 AM   #25
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Default Re: Kobe's legacy if Lakers don't make playoffs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noob cake
Classic Kobestan response. Push off any responsibility and attack Jordan to bridge the gap. Sir, it is you that is incapable of reading.

Funny how often I get called both a "Kobe stan" and a "Kobe hater." I knew you couldn't respond, and you proved me right. Oh yeah, and one more thing that proves your reading comprehension problems is when you said I "attacked" Jordan. Where in my post did I say anything resembling a slight towards Jordan? Please tell me, because I'll be fascinated to hear how you try to twist this.
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:24 AM   #26
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Default Re: Kobe's legacy if Lakers don't make playoffs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Funny how often I get called both a "Kobe stan" and a "Kobe hater." I knew you couldn't respond, and you proved me right. Oh yeah, and one more thing that proves your reading comprehension problems is when you said I "attacked" Jordan. Where in my post did I say anything resembling a slight towards Jordan? Please tell me, because I'll be fascinated to hear how you try to twist this.

Quote:
Even Jordan handed over more responsibilities to Pippen during the second 3peat. Pippen became the designated double teamer and the team's best help defender, which had been Jordan during the first 3peat. He also took on more of the ball-handling duties compared to Jordan. That was the biggest difference between first 3peat Jordan and second 3peat Jordan, he didn't quite have the same energy so he was a little less active outside of scoring.

So Jordan relied on his team, but poor Kobe doesn't have a Pippen? Its surpirsing how quickly you forget what you wrote yourself just minutes earlier.
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:35 AM   #27
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Default Re: Kobe's legacy if Lakers don't make playoffs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noob cake
So Jordan relied on his team, but poor Kobe doesn't have a Pippen? Its surpirsing how quickly you forget what you wrote yourself just minutes earlier.

That was not the point at all. In my post, I state that Jordan was better than Kobe, which I've been on record saying countless times and have never come close to deviating from that. The point was that EVEN Jordan as he got older couldn't score 30 and do everything he use to the same way. It was to my point about age. You have to conserve yourself at times, hell, even most young players who are asked to carry the load Kobe is do that. Prime Jordan was the one exception. This is just a fact. He was still a much better defender than Kobe, but he had to make adjustments. Kobe is carrying such a ridiculous load average 30, playing 40 minutes that I'd be shocked if he was playing well defensively. I do expect better defense from Kobe, but the Lakers are going to still be terrible defensively until everyone starts playing better and most likely until D'Antoni is fired, or Howard returns to pre-injury form. Even with the latter, I think this team would be average at best defensively. In reality, they need a real coach.

The way you twist things is so transparent I don't know how you thought you could ever fool anyone.
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:42 AM   #28
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Default Re: Kobe's legacy if Lakers don't make playoffs?

Not at all..

5 rings with productions of..

29/7/6 all first team defense
26/6/5 all first team defense
30/5/5 all first team defense
29/6/6 all first team defense
21/5/4 all second team defense

Will likely finish as a top 3 scorer all time..
And leading playoff scorer all time

His accolades already speak for themselves. A season where two coaches are fired, which I believe is the first time it's happened, because of incredible incompetence, and a bunch of injuries to Howard, Nash, and pau during the Lakers hardest schedule stretch aren't going to determine his legacy when he's had success in the other 98 percent of his career.
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:44 AM   #29
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Default Re: Kobe's legacy if Lakers don't make playoffs?

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No one respects your opinion on anything basketball.
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:50 AM   #30
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Default Re: Kobe's legacy if Lakers don't make playoffs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Yeah, and the Celtics and Mavs don't try to run either. They played 5 games under Mike Brown. Brown was an idiot for trying to put in the Princeton offense, an offense that I really doubt he understood enough, and I never thought he was a great coach before that. But, he's better than D'Antoni, and I guarantee they'd be a better team right now with Brown instead of D'Antoni. By the way, the Mavs defense has hardly been stellar this year, and while the Celtics are picking it up lately, they haven't looked like the dominant defensive team they've been in the past most of the season. But a big difference is that those teams are coached by two of the game's best coaches.

Kobe was the one that strongly suggested implementing the Princeton offense. But, yeah, keep blaming Brown for that one.
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