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Old 01-10-2013, 05:41 AM   #16
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

The hof voting is stupid. They should have been knocking on the door of ten and they put in no one.

Btw one thing I find interesting is that a ton of people have said these cheaters shouldn't be in till Rose is in. I generally agreed but in looking at his numbers it's interesting to note that he's really not a slam dunk candidate without the betting on baseball thing. He's actually more of a compiler then someone who was ever truly great.

Also in all the talk of era, the league ops was higher in babe Ruth and Lou gehrigs career then it was during bonds career(not each individual season but the career as a whole)
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:17 AM   #17
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by raiderfan19

Btw one thing I find interesting is that a ton of people have said these cheaters shouldn't be in till Rose is in. I generally agreed but in looking at his numbers it's interesting to note that he's really not a slam dunk candidate without the betting on baseball thing. He's actually more of a compiler then someone who was ever truly great.

Not sure if serious.....
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:22 AM   #18
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaininThrees
Not sure if serious.....
His career triple slash line is 303/375/409. He only had 1 .900 ops season. His career ops+ was only 118. He wasn't a good defensive player. He was basically Michael young for a long time.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:25 AM   #19
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose
Guilty until proven innocent, which is ****ing sad. I can at least understand their rationale for keeping Bonds, Sosa, Big Mac and others out. But really? The guys you listed? At least Bagwell and Biggio may go in together next year which would be nice.

Actually, virtually none of these players have truly been proven guilty. Just McGwire and Palmeiro. Sosa was never proven, although he had those comments along the lines of "If anything comes up in the future, I'll address it and calmy wait for my induction to the hall of fame" and then has stayed silent since, including not refuting the NY Times report that he was one of the players who failed the 2003 tests. Still not proof, but makes him look like a jackass. He is however, a proven cheater due to the corked bat incident.

Even with Bonds, it's an absolute joke to have a guy who was better than everyone else for a decade not in. Anyone who watched Bonds knows how dominant this guy was. Even when he weighed maybe 190-200 pounds, his 1993 season destroys the seasons Miguel Cabrera and Mike Trout just had which everyone made such a fuss about. And his feats even with roids are the most impressive I've seen from a hitter. Watching nobody throw him anything to hit, and still hit .370 with power, more home runs than strikeouts ect. I watched him and A-Rod, both steroid guys, Bonds was flat out better.

Regardless, I'm uncomfortable with all of the nonsense about guys being guilty once their accused. It completely goes against what this country's actual legal system is based on. The real embarrassment was the prosecution taking a case as weak as the one against Clemens to trial, then resorting to blatant prosecutorial misconduct in the opening argument to get some extra time to prepare their case. What happened to being entitled to a speedy trial? The case still ended up being so weak, I'm convinced I could have defended Clemens successfully, much less top-notch lawyers who crushed the prosecution because all they had to do was discredit the one witness against Clemens, whose past made that easy. So, that's where these taxpayer dollars go.

Some writers are so biased that they act like steroid experts and try claiming to know the effect steroids had on these players. And they ignore information to try to make their case. For example, this is one I hear all the time. Clemens was "washed up", left Boston and took steroids which fueled the latter part of his career. The reason this is so funny is that if you're going to assume Clemens used steroids based on McNamee's word, then you also have to take into account the time period. McNamee said Clemens started using steroids/HGH in '98 and also used them in 2000 and 2001. But what these people ignore is that Clemens 1997 season is better in every stat than his 1998 season(wins, ERA and strikeouts) and what's also forgotten is that during that last season in Boston when he was "washed up," he led the league in strikeouts. It just shows the bias of some of these writers, not that they think Clemens or anyone else did steroids, but that they leave out information when convenient to try to show what it did for his performance. In reality, they're nowhere near qualified to do so.

Probably the worst part is that these writers think these players should have been "above" taking PEDS. Yeah, no testing until 2004 and no penalties for testing until 2005, and you expect these players to not do it? I liked what Arnold Schwarzenegger said about steroids when he first used them, which was way back in the mid/late 60's. He said that at the time he was unaware of the potential health risks, but said that he doubts it would have made a difference. He simply said he wanted to be the best bodybuilder, and the way he went about doing that was by doing everything the other top bodybuilders did, whether it was something they were taking or an exercise they were doing. That's more in line with reality, not this ridiculous moral code these writers have made up. Who, by the way, were in the clubhouses for decades, and didn't think to say much. Funny, how it didn't seem to bother them much then as long as they could write stories about the '98 home run chase, but now it bothers them so much.

The character clause is a massive joke. Yeah, taking steroids makes you a worse person than Ty Cobb? Hell, Mickey Mantle by his own admission, turned several of his own sons into addicts/alcoholics by making them his drinking buddies. Hell, there are countless hall of famers in who did legitimately bad things to others, and now they're saying steroid users, or suspected steroid users are people who don't have the character these others do.

The cheating thing is ridiculous too. Everyone has heard about the amphetamines, not to mention things I considered actual cheating such as corked bats and spitballs. Personally, I'm uncomfortable calling PEDs cheating. I consider cheating altering equipment such as balls and bats, but I'm not comfortable with policing what players do with their bodies. If they're illegal drugs such as steroids, I prefer that to be handled by actual law enforcement.

The bottom line is, you can't pretend that an entire era didn't happen. That what we watched was just a dream or something. And the steroid era is far from over. There's still people using in recent years, such as Manny and his 2 failed tests, Ryan Braun, Melky Cabrera, Bartolo Colon. Even with testing and penalties, guys are still taking the risks, just imagine how many were truly taking them before.

Look at how many of the MVPs have either been confirmed steroid users or suspected users during their MVP years.

Jose Canseco(1988)
Ken Caminiti(1996)
Juan Gonzalez(1996 and 1998)
Sammy Sosa(1998)
Ivan Rodriguez(1999)
Jason Giambi(2000)
Barry Bonds(2001-2003)
Miguel Tejada(2002)
Alex Rodriguez(2003)
Ryan Braun(2011)

And this is a pretty conservative list, I don't really believe Bonds stopped juicing as soon as there was testing(probably HGH and undetectable steroids) and I left off A-Rod's 2005 MVP, even though some believed he was still using them, and I'm not convinced he wasn't. That's a minimum 13 MVPs since 1988. Plus, 1995 MVP Mo Vaughn was accused of steroids during his time with the Mets.

Oh, and you can throw in a few cy young award winners as well such as Clemens in 1998 and 2001, and Eric Gagne in 2003. Not to mention that 2005 Cy Young award winner Bartolo Colon was later proven to be a steroid user, though there's no direct evidence linking him to PED use in 2005.

I can't wait until someone already voted into the hall of fame gets busted for steroids, or directly accused, that should bring some of these writers back down to earth. Jose Canseco said a few years ago that he knows of a hall of famer who used steroids, and I don't doubt him.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:38 AM   #20
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

My guess for the hofer would be nolan Ryan. I seriously doubt there is only one but I'd bet my left but that Ryan used roids. The thing is, we don't know and without knowing I don't see how you can use that as an excluding factor.

I would let the roids guys in but at the very least I don't see how they keep just people with suspicion out.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:40 AM   #21
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by raiderfan19
His career triple slash line is 303/375/409. He only had 1 .900 ops season. His career ops+ was only 118. He wasn't a good defensive player. He was basically Michael young for a long time.


When SABR goes wrong.


Pete Rose has the most hits in the history of baseball. He's a first ballot hall of famer, if not for the betting.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:58 AM   #22
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcastic
When SABR goes wrong.


Pete Rose has the most hits in the history of baseball. He's a first ballot hall of famer, if not for the betting.
Oh I'm sure he would have been. And there is a valid argument for him, I'm not saying he is a slam dunk not a hofer either. But there is a valid argument for Rose not to be in the hall even without betting which makes him a different animal then lots of these guys.

As for him leading in hits, hits by itself isnt a very important stat. Of his 4200+ hits, 3200 were singles, and 754 were doubles. He had very little power and he didn't really steal bases. I just find it funny that people discredit palmeiro as being a compiler when they want an excuse to keeP him out other than roids but ignore that Rose was the ultimate compiler
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:00 AM   #23
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Yeah, I have to agree that Rose was easily a hall of fame player. Aside from the hits, three batting titles, an MVP, 2 gold gloves, rookie of the year, five top 5 MVP finishes and the way he played the game, as hard as anyone possibly could.

As far as the hall of famer Canseco was alluding to, I have suspicions about a few guys, but am not going to speculate much, though I do agree that there's most likely multiple steroid users in the hall of fame.
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:15 AM   #24
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

He never should have won a gg. Batting titles are nice but it's not like they automatically make you a hofer see Julio Franco. Like I said I just find it interesting that at no point in his career was he a truly great player.
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:51 AM   #25
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Big difference, though. Rose had three batting titles, Franco had one. Rose had an MVP and five top 5 finishes, while Franco's highest finishes were 8th, 15th and 25th. Plus, Franco was never as highly regarded as Rose was. Franco played until he was 49 and didn't approach 3,000 hits, much less Rose who had more than 4,000 and retired at 45 years old.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:41 PM   #26
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

I have no problem with keeping the roiders out of the hall of fame. Baseball more so than any other sport is about the statistics, and the people who used have completely shattered the standards that were set. The average person on the street couldn't tell you how many points Kareem Abdul Jabbar or Michael Jordan scored, but if you say the numbers "714" or "755", most people will know what you are talking about.


If a kid was an honors student all through 4 years of high school, but cheated on his SATs, do you think Harvard would accept him?
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:47 PM   #27
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by raiderfan19
He never should have won a gg. Batting titles are nice but it's not like they automatically make you a hofer see Julio Franco. Like I said I just find it interesting that at no point in his career was he a truly great player.

That's not true.

He had an 8.2, 7.0 and 6.8 WAR season along wth 12 straght years of at least a 4 WAR.

Just as a reference, Miggy's top 3 have been 7.3, 6.9 and 6.1
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:53 PM   #28
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Actually, virtually none of these players have truly been proven guilty. Just McGwire and Palmeiro. Sosa was never proven, although he had those comments along the lines of "If anything comes up in the future, I'll address it and calmy wait for my induction to the hall of fame" and then has stayed silent since, including not refuting the NY Times report that he was one of the players who failed the 2003 tests. Still not proof, but makes him look like a jackass. He is however, a proven cheater due to the corked bat incident.

Even with Bonds, it's an absolute joke to have a guy who was better than everyone else for a decade not in. Anyone who watched Bonds knows how dominant this guy was. Even when he weighed maybe 190-200 pounds, his 1993 season destroys the seasons Miguel Cabrera and Mike Trout just had which everyone made such a fuss about. And his feats even with roids are the most impressive I've seen from a hitter. Watching nobody throw him anything to hit, and still hit .370 with power, more home runs than strikeouts ect. I watched him and A-Rod, both steroid guys, Bonds was flat out better.

Regardless, I'm uncomfortable with all of the nonsense about guys being guilty once their accused. It completely goes against what this country's actual legal system is based on. The real embarrassment was the prosecution taking a case as weak as the one against Clemens to trial, then resorting to blatant prosecutorial misconduct in the opening argument to get some extra time to prepare their case. What happened to being entitled to a speedy trial? The case still ended up being so weak, I'm convinced I could have defended Clemens successfully, much less top-notch lawyers who crushed the prosecution because all they had to do was discredit the one witness against Clemens, whose past made that easy. So, that's where these taxpayer dollars go.

Some writers are so biased that they act like steroid experts and try claiming to know the effect steroids had on these players. And they ignore information to try to make their case. For example, this is one I hear all the time. Clemens was "washed up", left Boston and took steroids which fueled the latter part of his career. The reason this is so funny is that if you're going to assume Clemens used steroids based on McNamee's word, then you also have to take into account the time period. McNamee said Clemens started using steroids/HGH in '98 and also used them in 2000 and 2001. But what these people ignore is that Clemens 1997 season is better in every stat than his 1998 season(wins, ERA and strikeouts) and what's also forgotten is that during that last season in Boston when he was "washed up," he led the league in strikeouts. It just shows the bias of some of these writers, not that they think Clemens or anyone else did steroids, but that they leave out information when convenient to try to show what it did for his performance. In reality, they're nowhere near qualified to do so.

Probably the worst part is that these writers think these players should have been "above" taking PEDS. Yeah, no testing until 2004 and no penalties for testing until 2005, and you expect these players to not do it? I liked what Arnold Schwarzenegger said about steroids when he first used them, which was way back in the mid/late 60's. He said that at the time he was unaware of the potential health risks, but said that he doubts it would have made a difference. He simply said he wanted to be the best bodybuilder, and the way he went about doing that was by doing everything the other top bodybuilders did, whether it was something they were taking or an exercise they were doing. That's more in line with reality, not this ridiculous moral code these writers have made up. Who, by the way, were in the clubhouses for decades, and didn't think to say much. Funny, how it didn't seem to bother them much then as long as they could write stories about the '98 home run chase, but now it bothers them so much.

The character clause is a massive joke. Yeah, taking steroids makes you a worse person than Ty Cobb? Hell, Mickey Mantle by his own admission, turned several of his own sons into addicts/alcoholics by making them his drinking buddies. Hell, there are countless hall of famers in who did legitimately bad things to others, and now they're saying steroid users, or suspected steroid users are people who don't have the character these others do.

The cheating thing is ridiculous too. Everyone has heard about the amphetamines, not to mention things I considered actual cheating such as corked bats and spitballs. Personally, I'm uncomfortable calling PEDs cheating. I consider cheating altering equipment such as balls and bats, but I'm not comfortable with policing what players do with their bodies. If they're illegal drugs such as steroids, I prefer that to be handled by actual law enforcement.

The bottom line is, you can't pretend that an entire era didn't happen. That what we watched was just a dream or something. And the steroid era is far from over. There's still people using in recent years, such as Manny and his 2 failed tests, Ryan Braun, Melky Cabrera, Bartolo Colon. Even with testing and penalties, guys are still taking the risks, just imagine how many were truly taking them before.

Look at how many of the MVPs have either been confirmed steroid users or suspected users during their MVP years.

Jose Canseco(1988)
Ken Caminiti(1996)
Juan Gonzalez(1996 and 1998)
Sammy Sosa(1998)
Ivan Rodriguez(1999)
Jason Giambi(2000)
Barry Bonds(2001-2003)
Miguel Tejada(2002)
Alex Rodriguez(2003)
Ryan Braun(2011)

And this is a pretty conservative list, I don't really believe Bonds stopped juicing as soon as there was testing(probably HGH and undetectable steroids) and I left off A-Rod's 2005 MVP, even though some believed he was still using them, and I'm not convinced he wasn't. That's a minimum 13 MVPs since 1988. Plus, 1995 MVP Mo Vaughn was accused of steroids during his time with the Mets.

Oh, and you can throw in a few cy young award winners as well such as Clemens in 1998 and 2001, and Eric Gagne in 2003. Not to mention that 2005 Cy Young award winner Bartolo Colon was later proven to be a steroid user, though there's no direct evidence linking him to PED use in 2005.

I can't wait until someone already voted into the hall of fame gets busted for steroids, or directly accused, that should bring some of these writers back down to earth. Jose Canseco said a few years ago that he knows of a hall of famer who used steroids, and I don't doubt him.

Bonds '93 had a 9.7 WAR,
Trout '12 had a 10.7 WAR.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:52 PM   #29
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Actually, virtually none of these players have truly been proven guilty. Just McGwire and Palmeiro. Sosa was never proven, although he had those comments along the lines of "If anything comes up in the future, I'll address it and calmy wait for my induction to the hall of fame" and then has stayed silent since, including not refuting the NY Times report that he was one of the players who failed the 2003 tests. Still not proof, but makes him look like a jackass. He is however, a proven cheater due to the corked bat incident.

Even with Bonds, it's an absolute joke to have a guy who was better than everyone else for a decade not in. Anyone who watched Bonds knows how dominant this guy was. Even when he weighed maybe 190-200 pounds, his 1993 season destroys the seasons Miguel Cabrera and Mike Trout just had which everyone made such a fuss about. And his feats even with roids are the most impressive I've seen from a hitter. Watching nobody throw him anything to hit, and still hit .370 with power, more home runs than strikeouts ect. I watched him and A-Rod, both steroid guys, Bonds was flat out better.
I was just stating that guilty until proven innocent applies to guys who almost certainly never juiced, Biggio, Bagwell, Piazza etc.

But I agree with you overall. I think Bonds deserves to be in one day, because even if he hadn't juiced he'd be a HOFer. And I make a similar argument for McGwire/Sosa. They might not have made it without steroids (I'm more than too young to remember the start of their careers, much less what they looked like then in comparison to how I remember them looking in the late 90s) But regardless, they saved baseball. Maybe they shouldn't be enshrined because of their records, but the fact that they pretty much saved it says they deserve to be in to me at least.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:07 PM   #30
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Pete Rose without the betting is without a doubt a first ballot HOF'er.


-1x MVP
-1x WS MVP
-17x All-Star
-All-time leader in hits
-3x batting champion
-2x league leader in OBP
-Made the All-Star team at 5 different positions
-Had a .325 season as a 40 year old


Couldn't hit for power? Up to age 30, was pretty much in double digit home runs most seasons. He was good for 10-15 HRs at that point.

Couldn't steal bases? Stole double digit base 10 times, including a high of 20 at age 38.

At age 38, Pete Rose hit .331 with a .418 OBP, had 208 hits, and stole 20 bases.


Now he may not have been a model player in terms of gentlemanly conduct, but he was without a doubt a model player when it came to playing the game hard every day.
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