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Old 12-21-2012, 10:55 AM   #1
baller03
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Default Lowry vs. Calderon

whats the deal with all the hate coming at Lowry. Everyone was jumping for joy when he was first acquired now all of a sudden everyone is against this dude since Calderon has been playing better as of late. One thing for sure is that Calderon will be traded and that Lowry for now is the future PG of this team. Although I am a huge fan of Calderon he has his chance to play at a higher level than he has before and has not pulled through. We also have to realize that this is a "contract" year for him.

Check out this article by TSN Chisholm.

http://www.tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=412025

Thoughts ?
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:21 AM   #2
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Default Re: Lowry vs. Calderon

Lowry all day - He plays D - no one wins with Offence.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:45 AM   #3
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Default Re: Lowry vs. Calderon

I dont see either of them being here. Lowry will bounce as soon as his contract is up and calderon will be traded.
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:28 PM   #4
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Default Re: Lowry vs. Calderon

As Q said in the other thread, it's just a case of poor team composition. Having 2 guys who are worthy of starting at one position, it just doesn't work when you ask them to split minutes at that spot. Especially when we are lacking at other positions like the 3 spot. As for Calderon, he's had stretches like this before we know what he's capable of. It's the rest of the league that is in shock about it. The only difference i'm seeing is that he's finally taking control and kind of viewing it as his team. He's always been too passive with that role.

edit: this is from that article link you posted. wow, sums up my thoughts on the matter perfectly.
Quote:
One can argue that he should adapt, then, to the roster needs at hand, but then you'd be asking the team's best player to sublimate his greatest skills in order to cater to the inability of DeMar DeRozan, Ed Davis and Jonas Valanciunas to create their own offense. Trying to get Lowry to play like Calderon completely negates the point of acquiring Lowry, but the fact is that Calderon's passing is making everyone else more effective by keeping them involved and the ball moving whenever he's out on the court.

That's exactly how I view it. If anyone has watched Lowry prior to coming to Toronto (and I'm one of them), he's not playing ou of character. That's his game. He's an aggressive attack first pass 2nd guy. That's just who he is. He can score, he can pass, he can play D, he has a nose for the ball (rebounds), but he's not a pure point guard. He's kind of a combo guard who plays point guard mainly due to his size. Is that his fault? No. Don't acquire Kyle Lowry and then complain when he doesn't play like Jose Calderon.

Last edited by bokes15 : 12-21-2012 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 12-21-2012, 05:49 PM   #5
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Default Re: Lowry vs. Calderon

Ever since Nash and Kidd were in the MVP race in the mid 00's, fans have had this strange obsession with having a "pure PG". I think that term is totally overrated and, to me, meaningless.

The PGs job isn't just to pass and set up teammates. Their job is to create the best overall scoring chance for the team. That can be setting up other teammates or creating for yourself (if the talent around you is lacking). Lowry overall has done that while healthy. A few dumb shots at the end of games are being magnified with the overall body of work being pushed aside. I knew this would happen when I called Lowry a "more durable TJ Ford" (at least I hope he will be) in the offseason after the Raptors got him. Too many casual fans think the assist # is the one and only thing that matters for a PG. That's totally false.

This is a perfect storm of Calderon having his usual efficient offensive performances and the Raptors hitting a soft part in the schedule. Is Calderon doing anything different than what he has done the past 2-3 years? I don't see it. He's always been solid. People are trying to isolate the reason the team is winning when there isn't one reason. Yes, it's not even because Bargnani is sitting. As much as I'd love to dump it all on him.

If you go on the main board, you're already starting to see criticism for Kyrie Iriving not being a "pure PG". That's absolutely insane given how efficient of a player he is.
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Old 12-21-2012, 06:20 PM   #6
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Default Re: Lowry vs. Calderon

I still think that Jose Calderon is more suited for a team that is composed the way that we are even though I consider Lowry to be the better individual player overall. But also, as alluded to in that article, Calderon has also had the benefit of not having Bargnani out there. He's a game changer on the offensive and defensive end, and I don't mean that as a compliment.
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Old 12-21-2012, 06:31 PM   #7
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Default Re: Lowry vs. Calderon

Jose Calderon has not showed me anything different from what we are used to seeing when he his healthy. But when has he been healthy enough to play this way? it's been a couple of seasons since he last played 100%. His production right now comes at a critical point in the Raptors' gameplan as BC's phone is probably ringing off the hook about possible trades

But is he a starting PG?

we went through this same argument with TJ Ford vs. Jose.

to me Jose is a top notch back-up on the wrong team at this point in his career. he would be excellent running the second unit of many NBA contenders, doesnt matter where. he is as gifted a playmaker as you can find at that position and an extremely efficient player to boot. A guy you can really count on not making major mistakes with the ball.

But i've always grown up understanding that first and foremost the PG is the first line of defence. his lack o ANY ability to guard this generation's top PGs is not just glaring, it's laughable. he has no business trying to guard Deron Williams, Rajon Rondo, Jrue Holiday; and those are just PGs in our own division!

Lowry is young and he is a competitor. He was acquired by a team with absolutely no identity offensively whatsoever. Sure, on defence we wanna play hard; block shots, play tough man D, fight over screens, hedge hard on pick and rolls. it takes a very active and very physical PG to be able to play this type of defensive scheme an Calderon is constantly bailed out by the fouls of Amir/Val/Ed/Davis etc etc. If we are TRULY going to transcend our terrible rep as a bad defensive team, we have to commit to a player who will allow us to get there. Maybe Lowry isn't suited for this team, but to make that claim this early in the season is just ludicrous. For once these players are playing with a PG who is all about attacking and they bitch at not getting the ball, but they are trash anyways so why should he pass it?

moral of the story? i blame Colangelo, it seems to be helping me cope these days
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:32 PM   #8
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Default Re: Lowry vs. Calderon

Honestly, I think there are lots of teams with deficiencies in their starting lineup. Some say the PG is the first line of defense and they are the most important, some say the bigs are the last line of defense and they are the most important. Is one person right and one person wrong? Well it all depends on how you build your team. If your first line of defense is Steve Nash and your last line of defense is Dwight Howard and then your perimeter defenders are Ron Artest and Kobe Bryant then suddenly your first line of defense doesn't seem so important. My point being that the importance of a particular player at the PG spot depends on the composition of your team.

Take Rajon Rondo, great player, elite point guard, defender, rebounder, passer. Place him on a team like say the LA Clippers and maybe he doesn't look quite as good. Because Chris Paul is always a perimeter scoring threat they can't back off him like they do Rondo. But then on Boston they surrounded him with individual scorers to build on his strengths and hide his weaknesses. How you compose your team is really everything IMO.
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:54 PM   #9
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Default Re: Lowry vs. Calderon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burgz V2
But is he a starting PG?

we went through this same argument with TJ Ford vs. Jose.

to me Jose is a top notch back-up on the wrong team at this point in his career.
And this is why nobody respects Raptors fans, the expectations are ridiculous. How is a perennial top 5 (when healthy) assist guy who for his career has damn near averaged 50/40/90 a "top notch back up"

To me, to say he's not a starter would be to say he ranks below most or all of the current starting point guards in this league. There's the superstar class. The Rose, Rondo, D-Will, CP3, Irving, Wall, etc... those guys are undisputably top guys where he's not in their class. But every team doesn't have those guys...

What about Jeff Teague, Darren Collison, Brandon Knight, Jeremy Lin, Mario Chalmers, Jameer Nelson, Aaron Brooks, etc... Are you saying he doesn't belong in the same category with any of those guys?

To me, a superstar is a superstar, period. Regardless of position. and if you have one of them, you're lucky. And it just so happens that we're in a point guard era so a lot of the point guards are STUDS. But then again, even as much as we talk of this golden age for point guards, how many of those stud superstar point guards have been the leading cause for the championship? Mario Chalmers? JJ Barea? Derrick Fisher?

Jose Calderon is most definitely a starting point guard, and on a team with more talent in their starting lineup he would be looking even better than he is now.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:47 PM   #10
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Default Re: Lowry vs. Calderon

Quote:
moral of the story? i blame Colangelo
That's a fitting summary to any post about the Raptors.
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:42 AM   #11
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Default Re: Lowry vs. Calderon

Lowry "hate" comes from the fact he's chucking a lot of shots, but to me it's because there isn't much options out there to begin with. There isn't many players who can create off the dribble on this team, so Lowry will have to look for his. My problem is that were trying to build more around the point guards than the the sum of their parts where they can be more effective.

I think we can look for better options than our point guards to build around and looking at Lowry to be the 2nd option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00playboy00
Lowry all day - He plays D - no one wins with Offence.

While I'm also taking Lowry, it's not because of that point. You can win with a player who is more offensive orientated than another player who is more all-around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwyjibo
Ever since Nash and Kidd were in the MVP race in the mid 00's, fans have had this strange obsession with having a "pure PG". I think that term is totally overrated and, to me, meaningless.

I think it started more with John Stockton than Nash and Kidd, but your right.
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:32 PM   #12
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Default Re: Lowry vs. Calderon

I hate how passive Lowry is nowadays. He's giving up the ball too much to teammates that are worse than him too much. This team sucks too much than to let Lowry take less than 5 shots 3 times in the past 6 games.

I really don't get what he was doing wrong before. He wasn't selfish at all IMO. I hope he gets back to the level he was at before the injury.
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:36 PM   #13
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Default Re: Lowry vs. Calderon

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmart
I hate how passive Lowry is nowadays. He's giving up the ball too much to teammates that are worse than him too much. This team sucks too much than to let Lowry take less than 5 shots 3 times in the past 6 games.

I really don't get what he was doing wrong before. He wasn't selfish at all IMO. I hope he gets back to the level he was at before the injury.
That's the whole thing. Because of the poor construction of the team, Lowry was receiving blame for playing the same way he's played his whole career. Aggressive and assertive. When everyone complained it seemed like he came back with a goal to put the majority of his focus into moving the ball around. But he doesn't have an in between game, his playing style is/was his greatest strength. And abandoning it altogether is really wasting his talent and abilities as a player.
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Old 01-16-2013, 02:19 PM   #14
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Default Re: Lowry vs. Calderon

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilbeastnani
And this is why nobody respects Raptors fans, the expectations are ridiculous. How is a perennial top 5 (when healthy) assist guy who for his career has damn near averaged 50/40/90 a "top notch back up"

..

What about Jeff Teague, Darren Collison, Brandon Knight, Jeremy Lin, Mario Chalmers, Jameer Nelson, Aaron Brooks, etc... Are you saying he doesn't belong in the same category with any of those guys?

Thats a fair point actually. With 30 teams Jose is a starter on a number of teams... credit due.

About the respect though .. that is merely an opinion of talent and quality. Or rather more importantly a difference in opinion and not about respect.

Personally you bring up excellent examples as Darren Collison, Jeremy Lin are questionable starters in my mind - maybe not yours. In fact Jose on Detroit would get more minutes and the starting job over Brandon Knight due to Knights lack of consistency i/m/h/o. Same for Jose in Houston frankly...

(The Knicks management obviously agrees with me as they signed Felton...although I almost hate to suggest that is a good thing. There were some other factors involved).

But for the long term I would want Knight on the roster.

Jose would be a fantastic backup on a championship team. His skills - and he is skilled - would improve the Lakers, Celtics, Knick, Heat.

Last edited by Jballer : 01-16-2013 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 01-16-2013, 03:20 PM   #15
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Default Re: Lowry vs. Calderon

I'm not really disagreeing with you there. On a championship roster, I wouldn't want Jose Calderon as my starting point guard. But, I also wouldn't want a prime Steve Nash as my starting point guard for a championship level team. But my point in mentioning those other players was to say that there's only so many championship calibur rosters in the NBA and there's a good amount of starting point guards that Jose Calderon either equals or betters.
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