My Gripe with Tyson Chandler

[Rameek]

You cant play small and complain about Tyson not getting rebounds. If he gets boxed out there isnt anyone else there to grab them. The dude is all alone getting rebounds. How many teams have just 1 guy grabbing rebounds? Complain about the size of the line up complain about Tyson being the only getting them. The PF needs to average 10 the SF should average 5 to 7. The bigs off the bench should be in the 7 and up range.

Look at the team before you look at the individual.

[Clutch]

His rebounding has been great for a while. Like you said the only problem we have with him is letting guys just get to the rim with ease. He's our enforcer. If perimeter players can't stop their guys he's the one who should at least make it tough for them to score around the basket.
He was doing that pretty well in some games but there were some games where didn't even bother to show up.

We all know defense is a team thing. You can't expect from one guy to play defense for everyone else. But Tyson's defense hasn't been there for most of the season.
When Tyson plays defense,everyone plays it. It just how it goes.That's why it's extremely important to see him set the tone. Can't wait for Shumpert to get back. He's a key to our defense along with Tyson.

[knickscity]

Originally Posted by Clutch

His rebounding has been great for a while. Like you said the only problem we have with him is letting guys just get to the rim with ease. He's our enforcer. If perimeter players can't stop their guys he's the one who should at least make it tough for them to score around the basket.
He was doing that pretty well in some games but there were some games where didn't even bother to show up.

We all know defense is a team thing. You can't expect from one guy to play defense for everyone else. But Tyson's defense hasn't been there for most of the season.
When Tyson plays defense,everyone plays it. It just how it goes.That's why it's extremely important to see him set the tone. Can't wait for Shumpert to get back. He's a key to our defense along with Tyson.

Let me makes sure I understand.

You recognize defense is a team thing.

You claim Tyson hasn't played good defense and his teammates follow his lead....

Then how on earth during our beginning stretch were we a top 5 defense?

Btw Tyson has been consistently in foul trouble all year, so hes doing something even if it isnt effective.

[knickscity]

Originally Posted by Rameek

You cant play small and complain about Tyson not getting rebounds. If he gets boxed out there isnt anyone else there to grab them. The dude is all alone getting rebounds. How many teams have just 1 guy grabbing rebounds? Complain about the size of the line up complain about Tyson being the only getting them. The PF needs to average 10 the SF should average 5 to 7. The bigs off the bench should be in the 7 and up range.

Look at the team before you look at the individual.

Yup, this is the tradeoff when going small.

You have a 6 rebound of, and 4 rebound sf which is what we have in Melo and Brewer.

If Amare averaged 6 boards playing the 4 he'd get slaughtered.

Definitely have to take lineups in order instead of just looking one way.

[Clutch]

Originally Posted by knickscity

Let me makes sure I understand.

You recognize defense is a team thing.

You claim Tyson hasn't played good defense and his teammates follow his lead....

Then how on earth during our beginning stretch were we a top 5 defense?

Btw Tyson has been consistently in foul trouble all year, so hes doing something even if it isnt effective.

We were a top5 defense at the beginning but after that our defense has been solid at best. There were a few games where our defense has been great but there has been some games where our defense was horrible (both Houston games,then on the road against Dallas...).

Our defense at the start of the season was only great for 3 games (Miami,both Philly games). It was very good against Dallas,good against San Antonio and then it seemed like we stopped playing good defense after that game in Memphis.

Right now we're 15th at defensive rating. (105.5,we're slightly worse than league average of 105.1). That means our defense has been solid at best and if you think a little bit about it our defense has been BELOW AVERAGE after that good start.

I don't think you read my posts carefully. I said Tyson had a FEW GOOD DEFENSIVE GAMES. But OVERALL his defense has been below his standards.
Same for the Knicks. They had SOME great defensive performances but OVERALL their defense is nothing more but average.

Difference is,last year we had no offense so we had to be a top5 defense to have a great record under Woodson. This season our offense top3 in the league (2nd in off. rating) so we can just play average defense and have a great record.
I think the fact that Knicks have a great record ruined your ability to see that some things aren't so great.

[franchize]

We can go on and on about this. Clearly theres a divide in what some of us see. End of the day, I made this thread, not to hate on Chandler but to illumnate why I feel he's overrarted and overpaid. We paid the guy to be this dominant defensive force and I simply don't see it. I get exasperated by hearing things every year about guys and when I watch the games I don't see it. I don't see Kidd being the main reason why we are winning. I don't see Tyson Chandler "changing the culture defensively and dominating on the defensive end." I disn't see Lin being a great long term success (evidence in Houston). I didn't see Melo being a selfish player who is only good offensively. I didn't see the Jared Jeffries being any help on this team (which is proving to be true in Portland) I don't see Pablo Prigioni "really playing well in limited minutes." I didn't see Marbury being "a team cancer". I've been watching basketball my entire life. I've played since I was 3 years old. I'm not expert but I know what I see and what I see in Tyson Chandler is NOT what we paid for.

This is how I view Chandler

Decent to pretty good defender- (won't hurt you most games but won't dominate either)
Underachieving rebounder- (I'm sorry but an ahtletic 7 foot center should average 10+ rebounds EVERY year.)
Extremely vocal on the defensive end- (In my opinion, it's his best quality)
Inept offensively- (Sorry but pick and roll layups and lobs don't impress me. That's coaching and point guard play. Any guy who can jump and catch can do that. There's never a point where you can give him the ball and he can go one on one, nor will he ever knock down an open mid range J. Furthermore, if you pass him the ball and there's any defense on him, he's going to miss the shot. It's almost a guarantee lol)
Mediocre FT shooter- (Not terrible like say a Dwight but not a guy I can trust)
Picks up silly techs and fouls when things don't go his way
Doesn't go for many head fakes and doesn't jump unnecessarily- (plays with his hands straight up when defending his man which is great)
Underachieving shot blocker- C'mon. He's only avg over 1.5 bpg TWICE in his career. He's averaging less than a block a game.
Tremendous teammate- He really seems to bond well with the guys.

[Rameek]

Originally Posted by knickscity

Yup, this is the tradeoff when going small.

You have a 6 rebound of, and 4 rebound sf which is what we have in Melo and Brewer.

If Amare averaged 6 boards playing the 4 he'd get slaughtered.

Definitely have to take lineups in order instead of just looking one way.

This is why I cant kill him for not getting every single rebound. I have no problem with his rebounding numbers I just wish he was a little more energetic and go after more balls. I dont think he plays like that anymore because of his injury history!

Originally Posted by Clutch

We were a top5 defense at the beginning but after that our defense has been solid at best. There were a few games where our defense has been great but there has been some games where our defense was horrible (both Houston games,then on the road against Dallas...).

Our defense at the start of the season was only great for 3 games (Miami,both Philly games). It was very good against Dallas,good against San Antonio and then it seemed like we stopped playing good defense after that game in Memphis.

Right now we're 15th at defensive rating. (105.5,we're slightly worse than league average of 105.1). That means our defense has been solid at best and if you think a little bit about it our defense has been BELOW AVERAGE after that good start.

I don't think you read my posts carefully. I said Tyson had a FEW GOOD DEFENSIVE GAMES. But OVERALL his defense has been below his standards.
Same for the Knicks. They had SOME great defensive performances but OVERALL their defense is nothing more but average.

Difference is,last year we had no offense so we had to be a top5 defense to have a great record under Woodson. This season our offense top3 in the league (2nd in off. rating) so we can just play average defense and have a great record.
I think the fact that Knicks have a great record ruined your ability to see that some things aren't so great.

Clutch you keep complaining about Tysons defense I think you are way off base. Tyson has played very good individual defense and there isnt anything really wrong with what he is doing on the individual basis. Your complaining about the team defense. The team defense he plays hasnt been the best in the paint. He doesnt rotate over when people penetrate he needs to challenge the ball handler even if the man he leaves gets an easy basket.

The problem with the Knicks defense is Felton, Kidd, Novak, Brewer, Copeland! They can not stay in front of their men or slow down there men and Felton gets washed a lot on screens. These are the culprits to the defensive failings! Now when you have penetration with ease thats bad individual defense that makes the team defense suffer because people have to rotate to stop the ball and get out of position. Tyson doesnt rotate quick enough but I really think he's frustrated because of the matador defense from the perimeter players.

Originally Posted by franchize

This is how I view Chandler

Decent to pretty good defender- (won't hurt you most games but won't dominate either)
Underachieving rebounder- (I'm sorry but an ahtletic 7 foot center should average 10+ rebounds EVERY year.)
Extremely vocal on the defensive end- (In my opinion, it's his best quality)
Inept offensively- (Sorry but pick and roll layups and lobs don't impress me. That's coaching and point guard play. Any guy who can jump and catch can do that. There's never a point where you can give him the ball and he can go one on one, nor will he ever knock down an open mid range J. Furthermore, if you pass him the ball and there's any defense on him, he's going to miss the shot. It's almost a guarantee lol)
Mediocre FT shooter- (Not terrible like say a Dwight but not a guy I can trust)
Picks up silly techs and fouls when things don't go his way
Doesn't go for many head fakes and doesn't jump unnecessarily- (plays with his hands straight up when defending his man which is great)
Underachieving shot blocker- C'mon. He's only avg over 1.5 bpg TWICE in his career. He's averaging less than a block a game.
Tremendous teammate- He really seems to bond well with the guys.

I dont agree with a lot of this. I dont see whats the point of complaining about what he isnt. Does his salary match his ability no, but scarcity of position plays a role in salary in all sports! If thats the point no one can dispute that.

I think he's a good defender. He doesnt do too many things wrong. He isnt a shot blocker. He never was if anything he's a shot alterer. He has no offensive game, never had maybe never will who knows. He's a good all around player for the position and this time period. His FT's arent bad for his position.

I hate the techs and lack of self control.

He's not a dominant player in any phase of the game.

[knickscity]

I'll take your points, but I'm sorry the things you don't see maybe a set of corrective lenses will correct.....

Originally Posted by franchize

We can go on and on about this. Clearly theres a divide in what some of us see. End of the day, I made this thread, not to hate on Chandler but to illumnate why I feel he's overrarted and overpaid. We paid the guy to be this dominant defensive force and I simply don't see it. I get exasperated by hearing things every year about guys and when I watch the games I don't see it. I don't see Kidd being the main reason why we are winning. I don't see Tyson Chandler "changing the culture defensively and dominating on the defensive end." I disn't see Lin being a great long term success (evidence in Houston). I didn't see Melo being a selfish player who is only good offensively. I didn't see the Jared Jeffries being any help on this team (which is proving to be true in Portland) I don't see Pablo Prigioni "really playing well in limited minutes." I didn't see Marbury being "a team cancer". I've been watching basketball my entire life. I've played since I was 3 years old. I'm not expert but I know what I see and what I see in Tyson Chandler is NOT what we paid for.

Let's see, Tyson goes to a team and becomes a vital piece to their defense and wins a ring, then comes to our team and our defense instantly improves, then when the coaching becomes better the defense overall steps up a huge notch, but of course the players don't actually play defense, the coaches do.

But here's the thing, centers get paid, they all do, and when your center wins DPOY he absolutely EARNED his paycheck.

Only one here have i seen fans diss their own and say they don't deserve something.

Now i will adress each of your bold points.

This is how I view Chandler

Decent to pretty good defender- (won't hurt you most games but won't dominate either)

So if this is the case, why complain about his defense? Sounds like he does his job more times than none, not that many players can say that.

Underachieving rebounder- (I'm sorry but an ahtletic 7 foot center should average 10+ rebounds EVERY year.)

Tyson isn't athletic at all, and has never been described as such.

I'm quite sad that you relate rebounding to height, and really won't even go there, and i know you know better.

But take into account minutes played too, when he has played more minutes (closer to per 36) he's averaged over 10 boards, and this season he is averaging 10 boards, 2nd in offensive boards at center, so really don't see the complaint on this issue.

Would you believe your beloved Noah averages 10 boards and plays 40 minutes a game, 10 more than Tyson?

Extremely vocal on the defensive end- (In my opinion, it's his best quality)

This makes no sense, how can a player be extremely vocal on defense, yet be average at best themselves?


Inept offensively- (Sorry but pick and roll layups and lobs don't impress me. That's coaching and point guard play. Any guy who can jump and catch can do that. There's never a point where you can give him the ball and he can go one on one, nor will he ever knock down an open mid range J. Furthermore, if you pass him the ball and there's any defense on him, he's going to miss the shot. It's almost a guarantee lol)


Very few centers can create their own shot, and most do not have a jumper at all.

Dwight is still the best in the game, doesn't have any moves around the paint other than flipping it up or dunking either, and kills you at the free throw line.

So you wouldn't take high 60's at the line from your center who doesn't have a jumper?

I do think you're refusing to acknowledge that a pick and roll score is contingent on the player who passes and the roller.....not just the passer.

Tyson is one of the best at this, and any pg can run that simple play with him.


Mediocre FT shooter- (Not terrible like say a Dwight but not a guy I can trust)

Well I'll trust high 60's considering he isn't a focal point anyway, and usually it's a bonus point since he makes 70% of his shots without without that made free throw, and it's a good clip for a player with no jumper.

How many players do you know that hits a decent number of free throws with no jumper......name them.

Picks up silly techs and fouls when things don't go his way

All players fall in this category, ironically the leader in techs on this team is Melo, who falls into the same category you just described.

Doesn't go for many head fakes and doesn't jump unnecessarily- (plays with his hands straight up when defending his man which is great)

This contradict your previous point.


Underachieving shot blocker- C'mon. He's only avg over 1.5 bpg TWICE in his career. He's averaging less than a block a game.

Blocks dont indicate defense or really anything.

Tremendous teammate- He really seems to bond well with the guys.[/quote]

Why do your suppose that is? because his play inspires his teammates.

Even with your own assessment for the most part you just justified Tysons deal, but what you think you've heard is not what actually said.

Tyson is a hard worker, leader, communicator, and he does things to helps his teams win games.

His pay does not concern me, unless there was a player available that is better.

[Clutch]

Originally Posted by Rameek

Clutch you keep complaining about Tysons defense I think you are way off base. Tyson has played very good individual defense and there isnt anything really wrong with what he is doing on the individual basis. Your complaining about the team defense. The team defense he plays hasnt been the best in the paint. He doesnt rotate over when people penetrate he needs to challenge the ball handler even if the man he leaves gets an easy basket..

Help defense is also included into defense. His 1 on 1 defense is good. To be fair there are very few centers in the league that have a respectable offensive game. Not taking anything away from Tyson,just saying if you're big and smart enough you shouldn't have too much problems with guarding today's centers.

Let me correct myself. My problem with Tyson is his HELP DEFENSE. Too many times he's just watching offensive players go right by him for an easy layup. I understand he doesn't want to pick up fouls but he at least has to try to contest some shots.
I know that's mostly a fault of perimeter players but we brought Tyson to protect the paint and fix things our perimeter players screwed up. Of course he can't do it all by himself but his help defense should be way better.

No one is saying Tyson is bad for this team. What I want to say is that his defense isn't on level we paid him for. His leadership is great,no one is denying that. He got off to a slow start rebounding the ball but he really picked it off lately so I don't have any complaints about it.

[knickscity]

Originally Posted by Clutch

Help defense is also included into defense. His 1 on 1 defense is good. To be fair there are very few centers in the league that have a respectable offensive game. Not taking anything away from Tyson,just saying if you're big and smart enough you shouldn't have too much problems with guarding today's centers.

Let me correct myself. My problem with Tyson is his HELP DEFENSE. Too many times he's just watching offensive players go right by him for an easy layup. I understand he doesn't want to pick up fouls but he at least has to try to contest some shots.
I know that's mostly a fault of perimeter players but we brought Tyson to protect the paint and fix things our perimeter players screwed up. Of course he can't do it all by himself but his help defense should be way better.

No one is saying Tyson is bad for this team. What I want to say is that his defense isn't on level we paid him for. His leadership is great,no one is denying that. He got off to a slow start rebounding the ball but he really picked it off lately so I don't have any complaints about it.

If he's watching player drive by him, that is individual defense.

Tyson helps defense is good, he's usually the guy who comes out on the wing and switches and hedges quite a bit.

Tyson gets in foul trouble alot and he can't afford to do that.

He actually does what you want and really you just dont realize it.

He gets the boards, he gets the team extra possessions, he is the communicator and leader of our defense, he can finish a simple play, he does challenge shots.

He actually does what you want, otherwise our teams record would be pretty bad, which it isn't.

[Clutch]

Originally Posted by knickscity

If he's watching player drive by him, that is individual defense.

Tyson helps defense is good, he's usually the guy who comes out on the wing and switches and hedges quite a bit.

Tyson gets in foul trouble alot and he can't afford to do that.

He actually does what you want and really you just dont realize it.

He gets the boards, he gets the team extra possessions, he is the communicator and leader of our defense, he can finish a simple play, he does challenge shots.

He actually does what you want, otherwise our teams record would be pretty bad, which it isn't.

Our record isn't good because of our defense,it's because of our offense.
If we played this kind of defense last season under Woodson we wouldn't have finished the season with 18-6. It would have probably been 12-12 or something like that.
Our defense this year is AVERAGE. Our rebounding this year is BELOW AVERAGE.
We're winning games because we're efficient on offense. Shooting a high percentage for 3,not turning the ball over and having one of the best scorers in the game that opens up the floor for everyone is the key for our great record. Not the defense.

I realize what I want and he doesn't do it. I want him to contest and block way more shots.
Too many times when someone goes past our perimeter defenders Tyson is nowhere to be found at the rim therefore giving an opposing player a clear path to the rim.

We simply disagree. Me and franchize want more from Tyson and you think he's been playing great. No one is going to change their opinion.
But I know I've seen a lot of complaints about his play in game threads from other Knicks fans.

I praise the guy when he plays great but I'll criticize him when he doesn't. He had great games but he also had some games where he looked completely lost and disinterested. We pay him to defend and be DPOY or something close to it. Does he look like a DPOY candidate to you this season ? Just answer me this question.
If he doesn't then he's clearly underachieving.

[knickscity]

He overachieved last year.

[Clutch]

Originally Posted by knickscity

He overachieved last year.

You didn't answer my question. He supposed to be an elite defensive player,a defensive anchor. We didn't bring him to play good defense. We paid him to play ELITE defense along with leadership.

We expect elite offense from Melo and when he doesn't produce everyone is going off at him. They wanted to run him out of town last season. So why aren't the rules same for everyone ? We expect elite defense from Tyson and when he plays just solid defense of course someone will call him out.
The press obviously won't do it because Tyson is obviously Knicks MVP in their eyes. They will call out everyone before they call out him.

Don't take this as an insult but you seem just like the press. Tyson can't do anything wrong in your eyes. That's at least how I see it. I like you.Same goes for most of the people that post here in the Knicks forum. So please,don't take it as an insult. This has turned into a heated debate but it's ok in my eyes because everyone is being reasonable and calling it how they see it,not like on the main board where trolling is inevitable.

[knickscity]

Originally Posted by Clutch

You didn't answer my question. He supposed to be an elite defensive player,a defensive anchor. We didn't bring him to play good defense. We paid him to play ELITE defense along with leadership.

We expect elite offense from Melo and when he doesn't produce everyone is going off at him. They wanted to run him out of town last season. So why aren't the rules same for everyone ? We expect elite defense from Tyson and when he plays just solid defense of course someone will call him out.
The press obviously won't do it because Tyson is obviously Knicks MVP in their eyes. They will call out everyone before they call out him.

Don't take this as an insult but you seem just like the press. Tyson can't do anything wrong in your eyes. That's at least how I see it. I like you.Same goes for most of the people that post here in the Knicks forum. So please,don't take it as an insult. This has turned into a heated debate but it's ok in my eyes because everyone is being reasonable and calling it how they see it,not like on the main board where trolling is inevitable.

I don't take basketball talk personal.

We're good even in disagreement.

As far as the topic my expectations is.......just win.

I don't expect elite from someone who isn't.

But Tyson is good for us, and when the good outweighs the bad, the bad don't matter.

I like that comment about Melo though.

You expect elite scoring, I expect a complete game..

He's playing great compared to his career, I grant that.

[Clutch]

Originally Posted by knickscity

I don't take basketball talk personal.

We're good even in disagreement.

As far as the topic my expectations is.......just win.

I don't expect elite from someone who isn't.

But Tyson is good for us, and when the good outweighs the bad, the bad don't matter.

I like that comment about Melo though.

You expect elite scoring, I expect a complete game..

He's playing great compared to his career, I grant that.

I expect a complete game from Melo too. But my point was we brought him in because he's an elite scorer so when his scoring wasn't elite (he was shooting pretty bad for most of the last season) and the Knicks weren't doing well people wanted to run him out of town.

Melo's scoring has been great this year but overall his game has improved a lot. He's giving much more effort on defense and he is more willing to pass because he finally has teammates who he can trust to make a good play.

My point from the start was that I expect more from Tyson and I know he can be better than he has been for most of the season.
You'll probably disagree but there have been some games where he looked completely DISINTERESTED.
Guy is a terrific defender and a very good rebounder when he comes to play. Problem is we're not seeing him play at 100% every night.
That's my I respect Shumpert. He's maybe the only guy on this roster who goes out and gives 120% every night. J.R.Smith too. He'll take some bad shots but he'll always play hard. You won't see him look disinterested and not ready to play.