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Old 11-26-2012, 09:06 PM   #76
HardwoodLegend
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Default Re: Peak Dwyane Wade vs Peak Tracy McGrady

Quote:
Originally Posted by plowking
Nah. Tracy used to dribble the ball much higher, and was never as proficient as pulling off moves like Wade. I've seen Wade split double teams going through his legs, behind his back, etc. McGrady was never pulling that shit off.

He's had some impressive moves in his career... maybe not better than Wade, but relatively speaking he's right there when you take into account everything else.

Keep in mind that we're comparing 6'8 to 6'4. Players generally have weaker handles the taller they get.
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Old 11-26-2012, 10:11 PM   #77
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Default Re: Peak Dwyane Wade vs Peak Tracy McGrady

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micku
You can check the stats for it now actually.

Wade in 2008-09:

10 to 15 ft- 44% FG

80 FG with 182 FGA

16 ft to 3-pt- 41.9% FG

255FG with 609 FGA

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...shooting/2009/


T-Mac in 2002-03:

10 to 15 ft- 41.7% FG

78 FG with 187 FGA

16 ft to 3-pt- 43.6 % FG

282 FG with 647 FGA

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...shooting/2003/

As the stats show, peak Wade was close to T-Mac. Virtually equal. It just that Wade was a better finisher and T-Mac was the better 3pt and FT shooter.

But you can defend players better back then than now, so that accounts for something too. Probably driving to the basket. Still doesn't change the fact that Wade was a killer with his midrange j though.
That's a very flawed argument. Its like saying Lebron is a better shooter than kobe because he shoots better %s from midrange. It might be true, but it's not because he's a better shooter. It's because players give him room while defending, while people really haven't respected Kobe much as a slasher since 08.
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Old 11-26-2012, 10:41 PM   #78
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Default Re: Peak Dwyane Wade vs Peak Tracy McGrady

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnax1
That's a very flawed argument. Its like saying Lebron is a better shooter than kobe because he shoots better %s from midrange. It might be true, but it's not because he's a better shooter. It's because players give him room while defending, while people really haven't respected Kobe much as a slasher since 08.

1. How is this a flawed argument? This is nothing but facts. If I post the 3pt shot and player A > player B in %, then player A just shot better from the 3pt land.

2. For the defense issue, Wade was not only the leading scorer on his team, but in the whole league that season. After a few games you would think teams would have scouts say "Hey, this guy Wade improved on his midrange. D him up."

The biggest problem about guarding Wade that season was that he was a great slasher, finisher, and close to automatic at mid range. How can you guard a person that could not only beat you off the dribble, use picks, and shoot a mid-range J to your face. It was difficult. They had to send help. Which they did if you watched him play that season, but Wade was also a good passer and playmaker.

People also said that Shaq freed him up, which is why he shot a very high percentage from the field. But at that year, he was great at attacking the rim and mid-range. And he did it at a consistent basis throughout the 79 games that he played.


3. I never said that Wade was the better shooter, because you have to take into account the the 3pt shooting and FTs too. Wade sucks at the 3pt shot while T-Mac was much better. And T-Mac was a bit better with FTs. However, you can be very good at the mid-range game, but not be a good 3pt shooter.

Some players have good years at certain areas, but won't be as good at it in other years. This was the case with Wade. He was very good that year, but never been as good since. And since this is about peak Wade vs peak T-mac, then you have to mention his mid-range j. Just like if you mention peak Kobe, or peak Dirk, or Duncan. They did things much better in their peaks than later on their careers like you mention. In Wade's case it was his mid-range game. I see nothing wrong or flawed about it.

Last edited by Micku : 11-26-2012 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 11-26-2012, 10:56 PM   #79
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Default Re: Peak Dwyane Wade vs Peak Tracy McGrady

Quote:
Originally Posted by plowking
Nah. Tracy used to dribble the ball much higher, and was never as proficient as pulling off moves like Wade. I've seen Wade split double teams going through his legs, behind his back, etc. McGrady was never pulling that shit off.
Nope ... try again, kiddo.

Your homerism knows no bounds though, does it? You can't admit you might be tad biased or having an agenda here?

T-Mac didn't dribble the ball much higher. Stop talking like you know what you're talking about. You probably weren't even a fan at the time, your baby nuts were in Australia watching rugby with your father.

I've seen McGrady split doubles too, so please just don't. They both have handle. To even act like Wade is a tier above is beyond ridiculous.

Wade's signature move isn't even the crossover, it's the pull back between the legs after the crossover. You don't even know your favorite player's most devastating move.

I don't expect then in turn for you to know what you're talking about in regards to McGrady. Or anyone else for that matter.

Watch and learn ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj4XH1cnvho

Where is he dribbling high in that clip? In fact, he's dribbling extremely low. Especially considering Wade is closer to the ground at 6'3 / 6'4 and Mac is in the 6'8 / 6'9 border line 6'10 range given his length.

It's more than obvious in regards to this conversation a) you have an agenda, b) you don't know what you're talking about and c) you have a Wade jersey on right now.

Stop being a kum dump for Miami Heat basketball, and be objective.

Wade and Mac on the same level of elite ball handling skills. Both are superstars that saw constant double teams and still used their handle to create for themselves and their teammates.

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Old 11-26-2012, 11:21 PM   #80
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Default Re: Peak Dwyane Wade vs Peak Tracy McGrady

Quote:
Originally Posted by Money 23
Nope ... try again, kiddo.

Your homerism knows no bounds though, does it? You can't admit you might be tad biased or having an agenda here?

Everyone is biased. Its an opinion. Its biased from the get go.

Quote:
T-Mac didn't dribble the ball much higher. Stop talking like you know what you're talking about. You probably weren't even a fan at the time, your baby nuts were in Australia watching rugby with your father.

Yes he did. He was/is still one of my favorite players. I wasn't born in Australia... So I didn't grow up watching rugby.

Quote:
I've seen McGrady split doubles too, so please just don't. They both have handle. To even act like Wade is a tier above is beyond ridiculous.

A lot of players have split doubles. Wade is probably the best ever at it. Put that in with his combinations of how he does it, and its ridiculous.

Quote:
Wade's signature move isn't even the crossover, it's the pull back between the legs after the crossover. You don't even know your favorite player's most devastating move.

The pullback between the legs is still a crossover move... You don't know basic basketball if that's the case then.

Quote:
I don't expect then in turn for you to know what you're talking about in regards to McGrady. Or anyone else for that matter.

Watch and learn ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj4XH1cnvho

Nice crossover on Robert Traylor, the 300lbs guy.

Quote:
Where is he dribbling high in that clip? In fact, he's dribbling extremely low. Especially considering Wade is closer to the ground at 6'3 / 6'4 and Mac is in the 6'8 / 6'9 border line 6'10 range given his length.

Of course. A 20 second clip to explain everything. I'm guessing McGrady missed every shot in his career too? If that is what you're using as evidence for his whole career, I will gladly say Wade was a far superior shooter than too. And a better scorer, since McGrady didn't score a point.

Quote:
It's more than obvious in regards to this conversation a) you have an agenda, b) you don't know what you're talking about and c) you have a Wade jersey on right now.

a) I don't. Its my opinion. My biased opinion. Just like anyone's is.
b) I clearly do. McGrady and Hardaway are the only two Orlando players I've ever liked and closely watched.
c) No. Its in the wardrobe. I might bust out the jersey later.

Quote:
Stop being a kum dump for Miami Heat basketball, and be objective.

Wade and Mac on the same level of elite ball handling skills. Both are superstars that saw constant double teams and still used their handle to create for themselves and their teammates.


McGrady is one of my favorite players, and while he did have an aesthetically pleasing game, that one season of his gets overrated. I remember watching back then, and I don't ever remember thinking he was as good as Kobe that season, like many on here like to claim now, 10 years later.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:22 PM   #81
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Default Re: Peak Dwyane Wade vs Peak Tracy McGrady

McGrady...great overall player...
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:41 AM   #82
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Default Re: Peak Dwyane Wade vs Peak Tracy McGrady

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micku
3. I never said that Wade was the better shooter, because you have to take into account the the 3pt shooting and FTs too. Wade sucks at the 3pt shot while T-Mac was much better. And T-Mac was a bit better with FTs. However, you can be very good at the mid-range game, but not be a good 3pt shooter.

Some players have good years at certain areas, but won't be as good at it in other years. This was the case with Wade. He was very good that year, but never been as good since. And since this is about peak Wade vs peak T-mac, then you have to mention his mid-range j. Just like if you mention peak Kobe, or peak Dirk, or Duncan. They did things much better in their peaks than later on their careers like you mention. In Wade's case it was his mid-range game. I see nothing wrong or flawed about it.
Wade just wasn't as good of a mid range shooter, plain and simple. He shot a better % because of the fact that he's one of the greatest slashers ever and gets a lot of room for those shots. I never said he didn't shoot pretty well that season, but if teams had played him the same way they did TMac, he wouldn't have shot that well from that area.
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:22 AM   #83
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Default Re: Peak Dwyane Wade vs Peak Tracy McGrady

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnax1
Wade just wasn't as good of a mid range shooter, plain and simple. He shot a better % because of the fact that he's one of the greatest slashers ever and gets a lot of room for those shots. I never said he didn't shoot pretty well that season, but if teams had played him the same way they did TMac, he wouldn't have shot that well from that area.

He was very good that year, and that year only. He never step up to that level again. The % that I posted was shot location, which shows that he shot a high %. Virtually equal to T-Mac. Plus, teams gave Wade more space in 2010-11 when LBJ team up with Wade than 2008-09, but he could never hit the jumper like he did at his peak. And teams couldn't really afford to double team Wade with LeBron on the team unlike in 2009.

He took the most shots 16 ft to 3-pt than he ever had before and after that year. And had his best percentage. 10 to 15 ft was very good.

Right now, the only argument is really about defense. But how can that be when Wade was always a great scorer before, and was the best scorer in the league that year. Both T-Mac and Wade were both in similar situations. Yet somehow they sag behind Wade who was shooting at a career high around 42% at 16 ft to 3-pt and 44% at 10 to 15 ft? And was the leading the league in scoring? Basically single handily giving the Heat wins that year.

You can say it was a fluke year in his midrange game, sure. But the opponent teams did try to stop him, but couldn't. Why wouldn't try to stop the only person that can cause you to lose?

Last edited by Micku : 11-27-2012 at 05:25 AM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:28 AM   #84
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Default Re: Peak Dwyane Wade vs Peak Tracy McGrady

Wade: he is mentally tougher.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:11 AM   #85
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Default Re: Peak Dwyane Wade vs Peak Tracy McGrady

Wade.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:41 AM   #86
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Default Re: Peak Dwyane Wade vs Peak Tracy McGrady

I like T-Mac and I thought at his best he was better/more all around better than Kobe but his peak isn't better than wade's peak as far as all around impact. Wade is probably the only player on the perimeter that can come close to matching Lebrons's all around impact and eff that I've seen in the 2000's era.

T-mac had a better handle than D wade?
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:55 AM   #87
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Default Re: Peak Dwyane Wade vs Peak Tracy McGrady

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnax1
Wade just wasn't as good of a mid range shooter, plain and simple. He shot a better % because of the fact that he's one of the greatest slashers ever and gets a lot of room for those shots. I never said he didn't shoot pretty well that season, but if teams had played him the same way they did TMac, he wouldn't have shot that well from that area.

You act like Wade was given Rondo treatment.....The dude was the best player in the league that year and if you watched the games you would know "getting a lot of room" was far from the case.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:02 PM   #88
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Default Re: Peak Dwyane Wade vs Peak Tracy McGrady

Extremely close, too close to say one was definitely better, but I'll give '03 T-Mac the edge over '09 Wade. T-Mac was better offensively. He was clearly a better shooter and he had an incredible 3 point shooting season in addition to his all around scoring skill set second to only Jordan and Kobe among shooting guards, imo. He could get his shot off at any time, from any distance. He also had an excellent footwork, an array of moves, and was one of the best off the dribble, finishing, plus he could post up. Wade had the advantage going to the basket, but T-Mac didn't settle that season and could get to the rim and finish whenever he wanted. So I'd definitely call T-Mac the better scorer, not by a huge margin, but enough to not change my opinion. Playmaking is close, but I prefer T-Mac for pure passing and court vision. He also turned the ball over very little for a player who had to carry the entire offense almost by himself. Defense is definitely an advantage Wade had, and it's bigger than the gaps between them offensively, but offense is more important for a 2 guard, imo.

Both were easily at their best these seasons. I think Wade was at his best in just about every facet of the game, except his post game and slashing. He regained his explosiveness and was stronger than when he was young, but he mixed up his game much more and played more under control. This was why becoming so much better as a shooter elevated his game so much. Not only was his mid-range game excellent, but he became a legit 3 point threat for the first time. He wasn't a great 3 point shooter, but you had to respect that part of his game now because it wasn't uncommon for him to step into a 3, and he was capable of making 4-5 in a game when he was hot. He shot them really well after the break. I also think he did his best job as a playmaker, and as I mentioned before, he was more under control which cut down on his turnovers. When Wade was younger, you pretty much knew he was going to the basket, but there was more to his game at that point. It was also easily the best defensive season he's had.

With T-Mac, he obviously developed a lot from his early years with his shooting improving dramatically, his handle getting tighter and his footwork getting a lot better, though he was already pretty damn close to his '03 level as far as skills and ability by '02. I'd say his defense was better in '02, actually. But the difference between '02 and '03 for T-Mac was mainly becoming a more prolific 3 point shooter, just being on target more consistently with his shooting and being more aggressive. Plus, he had to pick up some of the slack of Orlando's deteriorating backcourt with Darrell Armstrong aging.
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