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Old 12-12-2012, 01:47 AM   #166
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Default Re: The Clippers should move Blake Griffin..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
Madsen if the Clippers had to choose between Griffin and CP3 they are choosing Griffin as they should. He's their true and original "franchise" player. Not the best yet but the guy who really turned this franchise around and is easily the most marketable. Griffin easily gets the loudest applause during intros, not CP3.

Bottom line is the team would dump CP3 to make Griffin happy before they would dump Griffin to make CP3 happy or more successful in your little fantasy scenario.


So the Clippers would be better going forward with Griffin and no CP3 than they would be going forward with CP3 and no griffin?

Dude, i just saw you in another thread like yesterday stating that 30/30 NBA GM's would pick CP3 over BG as of RIGHT NOW.
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:52 AM   #167
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Default Re: The Clippers should move Blake Griffin..

Quote:
Originally Posted by qrich
I lack reading comprehension yet you are the one that can't comprehend the fact that the scenario you are claiming to be likely has ZERO backup and I have provided factual events which many claimed to be likely which ended up being incorrect?

And on top of that, you keep saying ignore potential. Well that is fine and dandy as I have mentioned other reasons Clippers turn it down (contract, marketability, cohesiveness, etc.), yet you keep going back to potential and ignore the rest.

Let me try to make this easier for you to understand. Take away the potential, Blake still is the better player, who brings in more money due to his Mozgoving and his exposure when it comes to traveling time, and already has cohesiveness with Paul, Crawford, Vinny and everyone else.

Get it now? Or do I need to gift you a copy of hooked-on-phonics?




B-b-b-b-ut Smith is likely to resign in LA and potential doesn't matter....


you're lost.

you claim to have given "factual event" that should lead me to believe that Smith wouldn't resign in LA.

Allen Iverson not leading the Nuggets to a title has nothing to do with anything


and for the LAST TIME YOU you ignorant person, the only reason i'm saying to forget about potential is b/c you're saying forget about Smith resigning..

We are assuming that Smith will re sign just as we're are ASSUMING BG lives up to this potential. Understand?

and guess what you ignorant person? the trade isn't BG for Smith straight up..

It's Horford AND Smith and Kyle Korver

so sure, BG for Smith is a HORRIBLE TRADE for the Clippers, thats fine if you think so, but act like the LAC are getting ripped off when their getting Al Horford and Josh Smith in a trade is just


The one Hawks fan to post in this thread thought the Hawks were getting ripped off by trading Horford & Smith for Griffin?

You act like Josh Smith & AL Horford is a horrible trade for the Clippers.

Last edited by TheMarkMadsen : 12-12-2012 at 01:55 AM.
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:55 AM   #168
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Default Re: The Clippers should move Blake Griffin..

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMarkMadsen
So the Clippers would be better going forward with Griffin and no CP3 than they would be going forward with CP3 and no griffin?

Dude, i just saw you in another thread like yesterday stating that 30/30 NBA GM's would pick CP3 over BG as of RIGHT NOW.

Yes if they needed to play tomorrow 30/30 GM's would pick CP3. Just like 30/30 GM's would take Blake Griffin as a franchise player to build around going forward. No guarantee that he will ever be as good as CP3 but he does have the same top 5 all time at his position potential CP3 does AND fills more seats/draws more crowds.

VALUE wise which is what you're talking about Griffin is worth more than CP3 which is what you're not getting. You're thinking like a fan, not a GM.
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:59 AM   #169
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Default Re: The Clippers should move Blake Griffin..

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMarkMadsen
you're lost.

you claim to have given "factual event" that should lead me to believe that Smith wouldn't resign in LA.

Allen Iverson not leading the Nuggets to a title has nothing to do with anything


and for the LAST TIME YOU you ignorant person, the only reason i'm saying to forget about potential is b/c you're saying forget about Smith resigning..

and guess what you ignorant person? the trade isn't BG for Smith straight up..

It's Horford AND Smith and Kyle Korver

so sure, BG for Smith is a HORRIBLE TRADE for the Clippers, thats fine if you think so, but act like the LAC are getting ripped off when their getting Al Horford and Josh Smith in a trade is just


The one Hawks fan to post in this thread thought the Hawks were getting ripped off by trading Horford & Smith for Griffin?

Wow, you really do need some comprehension skills. I gave you factual events that were likely to occur, that did not. Therefore, eliminating you using Smith being likely to resign (with nothing in the slightest to back it up) with the Clips as any positive in the trade.

And read everything over kid. Even if you eliminate potential, Blake, ALONE, is vastly superior to all three of those COMBINED in marketability, cohesiveness and contract situation.

To boot, you continue to prove that you either can not read, or have the memory of a $.50 goldfish from PetCo. Value of players isn't everything in a trade, as the value might be there, but when you consider everything else (CONTRACTS: Blake + DJ. Marketability: Blake + DJ. Potential: Blake + DJ. CHEMISTRY & COHESIVENESS: Blake + DJ), it shows why the Hawks would need to be the ones adding incentive. And it isn't Smith + Horford for Blake, its Smith + Horford + Korver for Blake + DJ. Why ignore the whole trade now?

Don't know how to make it easier for you kid.
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:06 AM   #170
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Default Re: The Clippers should move Blake Griffin..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
Yes if they needed to play tomorrow 30/30 GM's would pick CP3. Just like 30/30 GM's would take Blake Griffin as a franchise player to build around going forward. No guarantee that he will ever be as good as CP3 but he does have the same top 5 all time at his position potential CP3 does AND fills more seats/draws more crowds.

VALUE wise which is what you're talking about Griffin is worth more than CP3 which is what you're not getting. You're thinking like a fan, not a GM.

and i'm the one thinking like a fan

anyways, i think we're arguing two different points.

what you're not understanding is CP3 is to the level that BG has the potential to one day get to, so instead of waiting around for that, the clippers "should" send out BG & use his huge trade value to bring in players that fit around CP3 better.

i feel like i'm talking to a fanboy. I've yet to say anything about Griffin in a negative way, or that isn't true. i've said that in my opinion he isn't a go to player in the playoffs yet, i've said that he's STATISTICALLY decined the past 3 seasons

yet i've also admitted he has huge potential, is a very good player at the moment, and has the potential to be a go to guy. I think BG's a good player and i've stated that throughout this thread.

I just think that a team built around CP3 gives you a better chance of competing for titles RIGHT NOW then a team built around Blake Griffin.. that is all

but with all that, you guys have came at me ad hominem attacks, pointless name calling/negging like i'm sitting here taking a giant sh*t on BG and making fun of your mother
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:12 AM   #171
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Default Re: The Clippers should move Blake Griffin..

Quote:
Originally Posted by qrich
Wow, you really do need some comprehension skills. I gave you factual events that were likely to occur, that did not. Therefore, eliminating you using Smith being likely to resign (with nothing in the slightest to back it up) with the Clips as any positive in the trade.

And read everything over kid. Even if you eliminate potential, Blake, ALONE, is vastly superior to all three of those COMBINED in marketability, cohesiveness and contract situation.

To boot, you continue to prove that you either can not read, or have the memory of a $.50 goldfish from PetCo. Value of players isn't everything in a trade, as the value might be there, but when you consider everything else (CONTRACTS: Blake + DJ. Marketability: Blake + DJ. Potential: Blake + DJ. CHEMISTRY & COHESIVENESS: Blake + DJ), it shows why the Hawks would need to be the ones adding incentive. And it isn't Smith + Horford for Blake, its Smith + Horford + Korver for Blake + DJ. Why ignore the whole trade now?

Don't know how to make it easier for you kid.


we're talking about giving a team a better chance to win a championships, not selling tickets, ATL might be more interested in selling tickets than competing for a title right now and will have the patience to let BG grow, which is why i picked them as a suitor for Griffen.

and i like how "everything" else you factor in all consist of BG + DJ, maybe you should factor in that Horford & Smith are playing like the best frontcourt in the NBA right now and are leading their team to record better than their talent indicates? Maybe you should factor in Horfords contact and how reasonable it is for a player of his level??

Like i just said, I think a team built around CP3 gives you a better chance of winning a title RIGHT NOW than a team built around BG

which is why i suggested trading Blake and building around CP3, the reason for trading Blake? He gives the chance to bring in almost anybody you want to put around CP3

if you disagree with that then whatever but thats my opinion

Last edited by TheMarkMadsen : 12-12-2012 at 02:19 AM.
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:16 AM   #172
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Default Re: The Clippers should move Blake Griffin..

Based on what? Most Clippers fans agree and know that the offense runs best through Griffin, not CP3. Not to mention Griffin has been more valuable than CP3 this year defensively. Bottom line is I disagree the team is best built around CP3 for sure because Blake hasn't had a chance to prove it's him and CP3 hasn't done anything yet in terms of team success.

Sure he had some crappy teams but it's stupid to say you can build a title contender around a player that hasn't even been to the conference finals in 6 or 7 seasons. Blake has improved every single year and if you follow the team you'll easily see why raw stats go down. Each year Blake's team takes a huge leap talent wise. Rookie year to second year and now this year.

Also you said trade Blake for win now pieces but the Clippers have the best balance in the NBA of high upside, young pieces AND older, win now vets. So why do we need more "proven" players when Blake is already a top 5 PF and has the potential to be a top 5 PF EVER. Sure the combined 3 players you're proposing may give a bit more now but if Blake becomes next in line to the Barkley's and Malone's which it's looking like... him and CP3 can win multiple titles TOGETHER.

BTW I'm not personally attacking you or negging you at all. I'm simply telling you that I can tell you haven't watched Blake as much as you claim. Blake in this 7 game win streak is our best player (yes better than CP3) and has been pretty dominant. He's finally healthy and back to his 20/10/3 games BUT with better free throw shooting, MUCH better defense and a pretty reliable jumper. I can't fathom how good he can be by next year.

Clippers need to stick with their family style environment in the locker room and guys who work their asses off all summer together and want to grow as a unit. No need to break anything up when you're an elite team with tons of room for growth and future cap flexibility. Clippers are in a perfect situation going forward.

Last edited by Clippersfan86 : 12-12-2012 at 02:18 AM.
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:21 AM   #173
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Default Re: The Clippers should move Blake Griffin..

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMarkMadsen
we're talking about giving a team a better chance to win a championships, not selling tickets, ATL might be more interested in selling tickets than competing for a title right now and will have the patience to let BG grow, which is why i picked them as a suitor for Griffen.

and i like how "everything" else you factor in all consist of BG + DJ, maybe you should factor in that Horford & Smith are playing like the best frontcourt in the NBA right now and are leading their team to record better than their talent indicates? Maybe you should factor in Horfords contact and how reasonable it is for a player of his level??

Like i just said, I think a team built around CP3 gives you a better chance of winning a title RIGHT NOW than a team built around BG

which is why i suggested trading Blake and building around CP3, the reason for trading Blake? He gives the chance to bring in almost anybody you want to put around CP3

if you disagree with that then whatever but thats my opinion

And that trade does NOT increase the Clippers chances for a championship, and even if you want to agree that it does, the increase would be so minimal that losing out on Blake's potential, marketability, contract and cohesiveness with Jordan and the rest of the squad is not worth it for an unrestricted free agent and a center, while probably top 7 at his position, that would be considered undersized in the West.

You just can't admit the fact that the trade, when looked at all angles is bad for the Clippers, so you kept nitpicking on what to reply too. Just sad.

Where is any sort of factual evidence showing Smith's likeliness or showing that this will increase any sort of championship aspirations?

And as far as the everything else goes, Horford is also considered in that nimwad. But hey, Steph Curry and David Lee are leading their teams to be a better record than talent indicates. While Kobe can't lead a team with the leagues best center to a .500 record. Kobe + Artest for Curry + Jefferson

Last edited by qrich : 12-12-2012 at 02:25 AM.
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:33 AM   #174
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Default Re: The Clippers should move Blake Griffin..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
Based on what? Most Clippers fans agree and know that the offense runs best through Griffin, not CP3. Not to mention Griffin has been more valuable than CP3 this year defensively. Bottom line is I disagree the team is best built around CP3 for sure because Blake hasn't had a chance to prove it's him and CP3 hasn't done anything yet in terms of team success.

Sure he had some crappy teams but it's stupid to say you can build a title contender around a player that hasn't even been to the conference finals in 6 or 7 seasons. Blake has improved every single year and if you follow the team you'll easily see why raw stats go down. Each year Blake's team takes a huge leap talent wise. Rookie year to second year and now this year.

Also you said trade Blake for win now pieces but the Clippers have the best balance in the NBA of high upside, young pieces AND older, win now vets. So why do we need more "proven" players when Blake is already a top 5 PF and has the potential to be a top 5 PF EVER. Sure the combined 3 players you're proposing may give a bit more now but if Blake becomes next in line to the Barkley's and Malone's which it's looking like... him and CP3 can win multiple titles TOGETHER.

BTW I'm not personally attacking you or negging you at all. I'm simply telling you that I can tell you haven't watched Blake as much as you claim. Blake in this 7 game win streak is our best player (yes better than CP3) and has been pretty dominant. He's finally healthy and back to his 20/10/3 games BUT with better free throw shooting, MUCH better defense and a pretty reliable jumper. I can't fathom how good he can be by next year.

Clippers need to stick with their family style environment in the locker room and guys who work their asses off all summer together and want to grow as a unit. No need to break anything up when you're an elite team with tons of room for growth and future cap flexibility. Clippers are in a perfect situation going forward.


Based on CP3 leading multiple teams with a lack of talent into the playoffs.

Based on CP3 HAS led a team to the WCF

Based on CP3 when healthy has proved year after year after year that he is a top 2 PG.

Based CP3 has proven that he can & will bring it in the playoffs.

i cant believe how much you devalue CP3.

But look man, if you think BG is on his way to becoming a top 5 GOAT PF, then i can understand why to me it seems that you overrate BG's potential immensly.

It's not a gurantee he will though, there have been many PF's with Blakes style of play that have exploded onto the scene and faded out, and even with his work ethic you can't rule out the risk of potential injury when the guy has already sat out an entire year prior b/c of his knee problems.

I think adding Horford & Smith to the Clippers while losing BG & DJ could put the Clippers over the top, they'd have the best frontcourt in the leauge, both bigs can shoot midrange j's, play defense & rebound, combine that with the best passing PG in the league (can we atleast agree on that?) and i think they can beat OKC.

Griffin may end up becoming the player you think he will, hopefully for you CP3 thinks the same & will re sign.
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:43 AM   #175
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Default Re: The Clippers should move Blake Griffin..

Quote:
Originally Posted by qrich
And that trade does NOT increase the Clippers chances for a championship, and even if you want to agree that it does, the increase would be so minimal that losing out on Blake's potential, marketability, contract and cohesiveness with Jordan and the rest of the squad is not worth it for an unrestricted free agent and a center, while probably top 7 at his position, that would be considered undersized in the West.

You just can't admit the fact that the trade, when looked at all angles is bad for the Clippers, so you kept nitpicking on what to reply too. Just sad.

Where is any sort of factual evidence showing Smith's likeliness or showing that this will increase any sort of championship aspirations?

And as far as the everything else goes, Horford is also considered in that nimwad. But hey, Steph Curry and David Lee are leading their teams to be a better record than talent indicates. While Kobe can't lead a team with the leagues best center to a .500 record. Kobe + Artest for Curry + Jefferson

He's consistently a top player on a team which consistently makes the playoffs.

Put him on a deeper team with the best set up point in the league, along with Horford they'd make a great trio IMO.

anyways guy, the ship has sailed on you grasping the concept of this thread or what i'm trying to discuss.

I think building around CP3 gives you a better chance at winning titles than building around Griffin.

The atlanta trade isn't what i think is best, just an example of how much talent i believe they can get back.

If you think building around Griffin is better than building around CP3 thats cool, tell me why.

but if you're gonna keep coming at me with the insults and name calling you can just leave that stuff at home, i'm here discusing why i think building around CP3 gives you a better chance at winning short term b/c i belive CP3 is ready to be the # 1 guy on a championship team.

If you wanna talk ball thats cool, if you wanna insult people get on FB or something.
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:48 AM   #176
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Default Re: The Clippers should move Blake Griffin..

Again you prove that you have flawed and unrealistic expectations of Blake. He got one year to prove something with a decimated roster and somehow carry a subpar team to the playoffs? Bottom line is Blake hasn't even had a chance to prove anything because the team went from lottery team to loaded title contender in two years.

CP3 on the other hand had 6 or 7 seasons to lead his team and while I think he had a subpar team most of the time and was an legit top 2-3 player most of that time.. he still didn't even lead the team to the WCF so the concept that he's proven to lead his teams into the finals or something just doesn't make sense.

I don't think you understand Blake's upside and like most people have turned on him you're UNDER valuing him. It's a joke that you don't feel a career 20+/11+/3+ player who's still raw and improving who's going to start his career with 3 straight all star games... has a very good chance to be one of the GOAT PF's. Guys like Kemp took 4 or 5 years to get to Blake's current level and I'd confidently say Blake this year with his D and shot is greater than ANY form of McDyess, Amare, Larry Johnson,Kemp or any of these tier 2 or 3 PF's in NBA history..
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:49 AM   #177
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Default Re: The Clippers should move Blake Griffin..

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMarkMadsen
He's consistently a top player on a team which consistently makes the playoffs.

Put him on a deeper team with the best set up point in the league, along with Horford they'd make a great trio IMO.

anyways guy, the ship has sailed on you grasping the concept of this thread or what i'm trying to discuss.

I think building around CP3 gives you a better chance at winning titles than building around Griffin.

The atlanta trade isn't what i think is best, just an example of how much talent i believe they can get back.

If you think building around Griffin is better than building around CP3 thats cool, tell me why.

but if you're gonna keep coming at me with the insults and name calling you can just leave that stuff at home, i'm here discusing why i think building around CP3 gives you a better chance at winning short term b/c i belive CP3 is ready to be the # 1 guy on a championship team.

If you wanna talk ball thats cool, if you wanna insult people get on FB or something.

He has been in the league longer than Blake, missed the playoffs his first three years, played in an inferior conference, and minus this and past season, had a vastly more talented roster. His numbers, however, have dipped in the post-season, so there goes the go-to point. Horford hasn't missed the post-season as of yet, but, like Smith, has had superior rosters and also had his stats dip.

He was on a deeper team, might not have had the leagues best point, but he was, so there goes that. And the rest is also the same speculation everyone had about Blake + Paul being the leagues best P&R duo since Stock-Malone.

I have never said Clippers should build around Blake over Paul, just said your premise is incorrect and asked you to show an example. The example you showed did not improve the Clippers chances of winning a championship, and if they did, the difference is so microscopic that it is not worth losing out on Blake's contract (Smith is a free agent), marketability, potential & cohesiveness, among other things. Yet, you were not able to respond to every reason why Clippers would not do that and/or nitpicked/went on tangents.
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:55 AM   #178
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Default Re: The Clippers should move Blake Griffin..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
Again you prove that you have flawed and unrealistic expectations of Blake. He got one year to prove something with a decimated roster and somehow carry a subpar team to the playoffs? Bottom line is Blake hasn't even had a chance to prove anything because the team went from lottery team to loaded title contender in two years.

CP3 on the other hand had 6 or 7 seasons to lead his team and while I think he had a subpar team most of the time and was an legit top 2-3 player most of that time.. he still didn't even lead the team to the WCF so the concept that he's proven to lead his teams into the finals or something just doesn't make sense.

I don't think you understand Blake's upside and like most people have turned on him you're UNDER valuing him. It's a joke that you don't feel a career 20+/11+/3+ player who's still raw and improving who's going to start his career with 3 straight all star games... has a very good chance to be one of the GOAT PF's. Guys like Kemp took 4 or 5 years to get to Blake's current level and I'd confidently say Blake this year with his D and shot is greater than ANY form of McDyess, Amare, Larry Johnson,Kemp or any of these tier 2 or 3 PF's in NBA history..


I am not discrediting Blake Griffin by listing reasons for why i think Chris Paul can lead a championship team?

I don' think Blake Griffin can lead a championship team RIGHT NOW, or for the next 2 years. But do i think Blake Griffin has the POTENTIAL to eventually reach that level? Yeah

I don't understand the logic of "TheMarkMadsen doesn't ride BG's ********, thinks Cp3 is the better player, therefor he clearly must be a BG hater"

I think, Griffins a good player, has the potential to be a great great great player.

However, i think CP3 is a great great great player right now, and could lead a team to a championship.

Which is why i suggested building around him.

thats all
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:58 AM   #179
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Default Re: The Clippers should move Blake Griffin..

Quote:
Originally Posted by qrich
He has been in the league longer than Blake, missed the playoffs his first three years, played in an inferior conference, and minus this and past season, had a vastly more talented roster. His numbers, however, have dipped in the post-season, so there goes the go-to point. Horford hasn't missed the post-season as of yet, but, like Smith, has had superior rosters and also had his stats dip.

He was on a deeper team, might not have had the leagues best point, but he was, so there goes that. And the rest is also the same speculation everyone had about Blake + Paul being the leagues best P&R duo since Stock-Malone.

I have never said Clippers should build around Blake over Paul, just said your premise is incorrect and asked you to show an example. The example you showed did not improve the Clippers chances of winning a championship, and if they did, the difference is so microscopic that it is not worth losing out on Blake's contract (Smith is a free agent), marketability, potential & cohesiveness, among other things. Yet, you were not able to respond to every reason why Clippers would not do that and/or nitpicked/went on tangents.

Lakers fans should have more to worry about then picking apart the Clippers squad in weird trade scenarios IMO. I don't get his angle to pound these things in so much when Blake has been our best player lately and we are on a big wing streak and one of the best in the west with tons of room for growth.

It would be like last year suggesting that the Thunder should trade Westbrook for Rondo and KG. Maybe it would increase wins for a year or two but it's bad long term, risky as hell and not worth breaking up outstanding team chemistry on and off the court, especially after a great start.
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Old 12-12-2012, 03:12 AM   #180
TheMarkMadsen
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Default Re: The Clippers should move Blake Griffin..

Quote:
Originally Posted by qrich
He has been in the league longer than Blake, missed the playoffs his first three years, played in an inferior conference, and minus this and past season, had a vastly more talented roster. His numbers, however, have dipped in the post-season, so there goes the go-to point. Horford hasn't missed the post-season as of yet, but, like Smith, has had superior rosters and also had his stats dip.

He was on a deeper team, might not have had the leagues best point, but he was, so there goes that. And the rest is also the same speculation everyone had about Blake + Paul being the leagues best P&R duo since Stock-Malone.

I have never said Clippers should build around Blake over Paul, just said your premise is incorrect and asked you to show an example. The example you showed did not improve the Clippers chances of winning a championship, and if they did, the difference is so microscopic that it is not worth losing out on Blake's contract (Smith is a free agent), marketability, potential & cohesiveness, among other things. Yet, you were not able to respond to every reason why Clippers would not do that and/or nitpicked/went on tangents.

Eh, i don't really bother with Smith not making the playoffs the first 3 years, he was coming out of highschool (Blake played 2 years in college i think) and if i remember correctly he was going to a pretty bad team.He also made the playoffs at the same age that blake griffin made his first playoffs appearance (22) You're other points on smith i'll give you that, he hasn't been shit in the playoffs though, slightly lower rebound numbers and scoring, however if he was playing alongside a pas first point guard instead of a shoot first shoot second sg those numbers might change a little.

Is the bold your only reasons for why you think building around griffin is better than bulding around cp3 to win titles asap?
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