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Old 03-19-2013, 06:37 PM   #91
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Default Re: Vote for the Top 10 Defensive Players in NBA History

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Originally Posted by pauk
Lebron is a soon 7 x 1st all-defensive team player who was a runner-up for defensive player of the year and in talks for that award ever since, a guy who last year had the most 1st all-defensive team votes (even more than the guy who won the DPOY that year).... a guy who defends PG-SG-SF-PF-C like nobody else could, his defensive versatility can only be matched by Scottie Pippen in NBA history...... speaking of Pippen, he said that Lebron is the best defensive player in the NBA.... im sure what is the best defensive perimeter guy i ever seen knows slightly what he is talking about better than at least you?

No, the only one that needs to be laughed at is yourself dh11414444343439434989849888



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Old 03-19-2013, 06:42 PM   #92
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Default Re: Vote for the Top 10 Defensive Players in NBA History

pip rodman and jordan have to be serious candidates
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:44 PM   #93
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Default Re: Vote for the Top 10 Defensive Players in NBA History

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Originally Posted by 10x91= 5 Rings

Rodman didnt & couldnt guard PGs/SGs.... especially not shut down speedy gonzaleses like Derrick Rose... Pippen & Lebron could...

My point is simply that i think its not ludicrous to mention Lebron when talking about the best perimeter playing defenders of all time, Lebron isnt/wasnt the best guy to defend the perimeter nor the best guy to defend the interior, he isnt the best guy to defend strictly PGs or SGs or SFs or PFs or Cs..... but he can do what neither of those guys could, which is to defend them ALL, any player..... its the overall/allround defense in its entirety, the versatility, being able to defend almost all positions/players (except for the likes of Shaq) which makes him a great overall defender and one of the greatest overall/allround defenders of all time... because of this it makes Lebron probably the greatest team / help defender you can have today, he can ballhawk and help cover any man on the floor, interior or perimeter or hunt down any speed demon in the open court and he has great IQ/leadership (extremly vocal) on the defensive end....

Last edited by pauk : 03-19-2013 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:12 PM   #94
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Default Re: Vote for the Top 10 Defensive Players in NBA History

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Originally Posted by pauk
Rodman didnt & couldnt guard PGs/SGs.... especially not shut down speedy gonzaleses like Derrick Rose... Pippen & Lebron could...



Maybe that's the case with 90's Rodamn, but 80's Rodman was every bit - and then some - the perimeter defender that Lebron is. Rodman is easily the most versatile defender I've seen in my lifetime, and I say that with very little hesitation.
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:12 PM   #95
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Default Re: Vote for the Top 10 Defensive Players in NBA History

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Originally Posted by pauk
Rodman didnt & couldnt guard PGs/SGs.... especially not shut down speedy gonzaleses like Derrick Rose... Pippen could...

You must be a little kid . You didn`t see Rodman with the Bad Boys. He could make every players life miserable. And he would make even your favorite player`s life miserable. No matter if he is a pg,sg or c.

Here is just a little new york times article i found from 1990.

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/05/08/sp...n-defense.html

Quote:
Rodman will inevitably be a pivotal player in the four-of-seven-game Eastern Conference playoff series between the Pistons and the Knicks, which begins here Tuesday night. On a team that prides itself on defense, Rodman is the master. Standing 6 feet 8 inches tall, with a wiry but deceptively strong 210-pound build, Rodman has the lateral movement to defend quick players, the strength to defend physical players and the leaping ability to defend taller players. He is also one of the league's most tenacious rebounders, a player capable of grabbing 20 or more rebounds in a game....

Don`t make me embarrass you,son.
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:17 PM   #96
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Default Re: Vote for the Top 10 Defensive Players in NBA History

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Originally Posted by Whoah10115
What I hate about these lists is that it will be flooded with big men, just because they're big. And that means I'm gonna see Kareem and even Shaq on lists, which is where the problem lies.

I don't really see the problem with that. Big men are almost always your most impactful defensive players, just like guards are almost always your most impactful offensive players.

My list of "top" offensive players would be mostly guards and forwards

Magic, Bird, Jordan, Oscar, Lebron, Nash, ect.
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:27 PM   #97
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Default Re: Vote for the Top 10 Defensive Players in NBA History

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Originally Posted by DatAsh
I don't really see the problem with that. Big men are almost always your most impactful defensive players, just like guards are almost always your most impactful offensive players.

My list of "top" offensive players would be mostly guards and forwards

Magic, Bird, Jordan, Oscar, Lebron, Nash, ect.

Have you conveniently forgotten KAJ, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan? If not, then you should probably qualify your statement with "in (very) recent years."
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:29 PM   #98
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Default Re: Vote for the Top 10 Defensive Players in NBA History

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Originally Posted by rmt
Have you conveniently forgotten KAJ, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan? If not, then you should probably qualify your statement with "in (very) recent years."

I have not.

Based on heavy statistical research into this exact subject, Shaq is the only player from that list that's in the same category as the guys I mentioned, and he'd be at the bottom of that pack.
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:46 PM   #99
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Default Re: Vote for the Top 10 Defensive Players in NBA History

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Originally Posted by kennethgriffin
rebounds are great. i'm just saying you get more when your a big man. and its totally different than offense or defense. its grabbing a basketball thats in the air. its niether stopping a guy from shooting or shooting over someone

its favored towards big men because theyre taller

so to just say someones a better defender because theyre taller and their position is beside the basket is kind of absurd


and blocks are verry usefull aswell. but its mainly a big mans game. you cant judge perimeter defense on blocks because coaches teach you not to try and block three point shooters or jump shooters because theyel bait you into the foul

contesting shots and staying infront of your defender is guard defense. and thats verry hard to measure in the box score other than the apposing team players points/fg%/turnovers

when it comes down to it you cannot compare big men to guards in terms of defense because its 2 completely different types of defense.

big men almost always win the DPOTY award because of this unfair advantage in recorded statistics and rebounding counting


when infact a guard who averages 6-7 rebounds is more impressive than a center who averages 9-10

and blocking a shot 2 times a game is not more valuable that stopping a great scorer from putting up 30 points


its actually harder to be a perimeter defender because the best scorers are guards/small forwards

It's not about what's more impressive. It never has been. This is something you clearly don't get.

If you have two players, one who averages 10 rebounds and one who averages 7, the first player has more of an impact on the boards, regardless of anything else. It's more impressive when Rondo averages 5.6 boards than when Lopez averages 7, but Lopez has more of an impact on the boards.

This goes for all areas of basketball. A 20-foot fadeaway is WAY more impressive than a layup 3 point play, but the layup is more effective.

Yeah, big men have an unfair advantage when it comes to DPOY awards and defensive all-time rankings, but that doesn't mean we have to adjust by putting players up there who don't have as big of an impact simply because "it's more impressive" what they do with less.

Even in today's NBA, a dominant defensive big can impact the game more than a perimeter defender. You can isolate the great perimeter defender on the weakside and keep him out of the play, but any path to an easy shot in the paint has to go through a your dominant defensive big (assuming you have one).

Edit: Didn't see that someone had brought this up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
You bring up an interesting point here. It's related to a question I've asked on here before, but for which I really didn't get a response. What helps a team more: a pg who grabs 7 rebounds a game, or a center who grabs 9 rebounds a game? Is the center even helping his team at all?

I think it's clearly the center, ceteris parabis.

Last edited by Djahjaga : 03-19-2013 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:04 PM   #100
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Default Re: Vote for the Top 10 Defensive Players in NBA History

How the hell is Kobe nominated. His defense is the worst among those listed.
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:07 PM   #101
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Default Re: Vote for the Top 10 Defensive Players in NBA History

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djahjaga
It's not about what's more impressive. It never has been. This is something you clearly don't get.

If you have two players, one who averages 10 rebounds and one who averages 7, the first player has more of an impact on the boards, regardless of anything else. It's more impressive when Rondo averages 5.6 boards than when Lopez averages 7, but Lopez has more of an impact on the boards.

This goes for all areas of basketball. A 20-foot fadeaway is WAY more impressive than a layup 3 point play, but the layup is more effective.

Yeah, big men have an unfair advantage when it comes to DPOY awards and defensive all-time rankings, but that doesn't mean we have to adjust by putting players up there who don't have as big of an impact simply because "it's more impressive" what they do with less.

Even in today's NBA, a dominant defensive big can impact the game more than a perimeter defender. You can isolate the great perimeter defender on the weakside and keep him out of the play, but any path to an easy shot in the paint has to go through a your dominant defensive big (assuming you have one).

Edit: Didn't see that someone had brought this up.



I think it's clearly the center, ceteris parabis.

So a center that makes the average team worse at rebounding is better than a guard who improve's the average team's rebounding?

Is the purpose of a great rebounder to put up good stats or is it to help his team?
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:18 PM   #102
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Default Re: Vote for the Top 10 Defensive Players in NBA History

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
Didn't see this post.




I don't remember having a discussion Mutombo...what were you feelings there?

Bobby Jones is a good addition...as is Kevin McHale...in fact, remembering him is gonna make this tough on me.

I forgot Alonzo. I think he's also better than any of those 3. I saw someone put Kareem on the list, but listed him as Lew Alcindor. I don't know if he was implying anything, but that would be one way I could consider Kareem for the list...tho I still wouldn't put him in the top 20.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=283177

McHale was great.

I think Zo has a solid case for a top 10 spot as well. Kareem 70-74 from what I understand was great defensively, but as I said in the Magic thread 75-78 seems to have been subpar.
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:29 PM   #103
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Default Re: Vote for the Top 10 Defensive Players in NBA History

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpliii
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=283177

McHale was great.

I think Zo has a solid case for a top 10 spot as well. Kareem 70-74 from what I understand was great defensively, but as I said in the Magic thread 75-78 seems to have been subpar.

77' Kareem was a very good defender.
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:38 PM   #104
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Default Re: Vote for the Top 10 Defensive Players in NBA History

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpliii
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=283177

McHale was great.

I think Zo has a solid case for a top 10 spot as well. Kareem 70-74 from what I understand was great defensively, but as I said in the Magic thread 75-78 seems to have been subpar.



Oh that was you who created that thread


I wonder if there is an argument to be made for evaluating Kareem, the Alcindor days.
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:19 PM   #105
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Default Re: Vote for the Top 10 Defensive Players in NBA History

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
77' Kareem was a very good defender.

I think so, but based on what I've seen/read about his time in Milwaukee (through the 74 Finals) he was much more of a dominant presence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
Oh that was you who created that thread


I wonder if there is an argument to be made for evaluating Kareem, the Alcindor days.

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