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Old 11-19-2012, 12:56 PM   #16
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Default Re: I'm still young to the game... why do you have to hold the ball...

Funny thing is a week ago NOAH jacked up a 3 at the end of the game so the Bulls need to stfu.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:04 PM   #17
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Default Re: I'm still young to the game... why do you have to hold the ball...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rake2204
I understand that's the reasoning. I'm saying, why is that the reasoning. Why and how did that somehow become established in the manner with which it did? I think it's a ridiculous unwritten rule and I'm often pleased when I see players fight such a preposterous concept.

Again, I'm not saying the floodgates should be open to players on winning teams yelling in opponent's faces, break dancing on the court, or grabbing a microphone with 15 seconds left and declaring, "These guys all suck." But a meaningless end-of-game bucket should have absolutely no repercussion. If nothing else, it's something for the fans, who again, are paying to see things like that.

It sort of reminds me of an incident a year or two ago when the Mavericks were winning by 10 or so with 20 seconds left. Their opponent was pressing the length of the floor, pressuring Dallas' point guard and really making him work. To assist, Brian Cardinal stepped up and set a screen on the defender. The opposition drew huge issue with Cardinal's play because they claimed the game was already decided.

Again, I understand it's part of the culture, I just think it's a terrible part of the culture and nearly makes zero sense, particularly in Lillard's case where he just put it in with two hands and pretty much ran up the floor with his head down.
Well it's just the culture. I don't think it's preposterous at all. There's attached meaning to the gesture in the NBA culture.

Just like giving a middle finger is disrespectful and people get very very offended by it. Why? It's just a finger and it has no repercussion. Why and how did that somehow become established in the manner with which it did?
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:06 PM   #18
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Default Re: I'm still young to the game... why do you have to hold the ball...

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Originally Posted by jlip
I liked how Nate Robinson handled that.

agreed. he went up to him and told him it was a no no.

case closed.

kid will learn.

not sure how noah can be mad at anyone though. this is the same guy shooting 3s at with the game over. don't care if it was to get the crowd chalupas or w/ever.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:06 PM   #19
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Default Re: I'm still young to the game... why do you have to hold the ball...

The idea that this is limited to the NBA is absurd. I have seen kids flipped trying to go for dunks at the buzzer.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:08 PM   #20
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Default Re: I'm still young to the game... why do you have to hold the ball...

its always been thought of as disrespectful. absolutely no reason to do it and many reasons you shouldnt.

nate robinson class act.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:11 PM   #21
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Default Re: I'm still young to the game... why do you have to hold the ball...

For the same reason you pull your starters out when you're up by 20 with 5 minutes to go. It shows respect for your opponent, you lower the chance of injury, it shows you have class and aren't a showboat. This should be common sense.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:13 PM   #22
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Default Re: I'm still young to the game... why do you have to hold the ball...

Lillard's a class act, he obviously didn't mean to be disrespectful.

He explained that he thought the Bulls' players were going to try to steal the ball and he instinctively went for a dunk.

Either way, unless the game is a 30+ point blowout, I don't think playing out the final possession is offensive. In Europe, it's very common that teams winning the game play out the final possession.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:14 PM   #23
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Default Re: I'm still young to the game... why do you have to hold the ball...

Up 10? Then shoot a three like Rondo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHT71...feature=fvwrel

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Old 11-19-2012, 01:17 PM   #24
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Default Re: I'm still young to the game... why do you have to hold the ball...

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamgine
Well it's just the culture. I don't think it's preposterous at all. There's attached meaning to the gesture in the NBA culture.

Just like giving a middle finger is disrespectful and people get very very offended by it. Why? It's just a finger and it has no repercussion. Why and how did that somehow become established in the manner with which it did?
Well, you make an interesting point, but I feel the middle finger developed an intended connotation throughout history. At some point, it was established in our culture that a person flipping someone off was an intended insult so the receiver of such a sign likely has to distinguish whether the intention is consistent with its history.

For instance, if I cut someone off in traffic and that person flips me off, I know what it means and they know what it means. They flip me off because their intention is to insult or object to my actions. On the contrary, if a baby flips me off because they're fascinated by their own developing motor function, I know what it can mean, but I understand an insult is likely not what that baby intended. More times than not though, if there's a confrontation of some kind and a middle finger is raised, the person using that finger is doing so with full intent of insulting the other party.

In the case of an end-of-game dunk, I'd venture to say most often, there's no ill will intended for the opposition, it's just players getting out and playing the game. They're dunking because it's fun, not because they're trying to piss off and offend the other team. As such, I think it's shortsighted for the opponent to always assume the worst case scenario.

I think the Lillard dunk is the perfect scenario. He just dunked. That's it. He didn't even do a fancy dunk (of which I'd still accept). He scored a random couple of points and the game ended. I think there's absolutely no reason this shouldn't have been a non-issue. Lillard should have slammed, the announcers should have maybe mentioned it, or maybe just kept wrapping the game up, "And so a quick bucket there and this one's just about in the books, the Blazers will take it..." and both teams should have retired to their respective locker rooms, more concerned with the other 47 minutes and 55 seconds of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burgz V2
its always been thought of as disrespectful. absolutely no reason to do it and many reasons you shouldnt.

nate robinson class act.
I really don't think it's always been thought of as disrespectful. It seems like it's developed a life of its own in recent history. I feel like it was often thought of as unnecessary, but people lived with it. To see the response the commentators gave Lillard's routine slam last night, you'd think he'd shot somebody.

On the flip side, I recently watched a Pistons/Spurs game from '95 that the Spurs won by 17. The game was never in doubt. San Antonio acquired possession with less than 20 seconds left and as the clock wound down toward zero, Vinny Del Negro shot and hit a 20 foot jumper at the buzzer. Not a single person flinched. And I'm not saying that's how games always were in the 90's. They didn't all end with the winning team dunking or shooting at the buzzer, but I do think the Del Negro reaction was much more logical and normal. There was a game being played and a player made a shot. That's the long and short of it. Again, had Del Negro done something obscene alongside, there'd be a problem. He didn't though, and neither did Lillard, and that is why I do not agree with the strange development and growth of this unwritten rule.

Edit: I also just read an article on Joakim Noah shooting a three pointer in hopes of winning his crowd free Big Macs. I think this is another fine example. It should be a non-story. Further, I cannot believe it's something the coach had to comment on and admit he talked to Noah in private about. He was attempting to please 20,000 yelling fans by playing basketball until the game ended, and now he has to issue a statement where he admits his regret and will never shoot a three pointer like that again? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Last edited by Rake2204 : 11-19-2012 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:23 PM   #25
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Default Re: I'm still young to the game... why do you have to hold the ball...

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Old 11-19-2012, 01:43 PM   #26
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Default Re: I'm still young to the game... why do you have to hold the ball...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rake2204
Well, you make an interesting point, but I feel the middle finger developed an intended connotation throughout history. At some point, it was established in our culture that a person flipping someone off was an intended insult so the receiver of such a sign likely has to distinguish whether the intention is consistent with its history.

For instance, if I cut someone off in traffic and that person flips me off, I know what it means and they know what it means. They flip me off because their intention is to insult or object to my actions. On the contrary, if a baby flips me off because they're fascinated by their own developing motor function, I know what it can mean, but I understand an insult is likely not what that baby intended. More times than not though, if there's a confrontation of some kind and a middle finger is raised, the person using that finger is doing so with full intent of insulting the other party.

In the case of an end-of-game dunk, I'd venture to say most often, there's no ill will intended for the opposition, it's just players getting out and playing the game. They're dunking because it's fun, not because they're trying to piss off and offend the other team. As such, I think it's shortsighted for the opponent to always assume the worst case scenario.

I think the Lillard dunk is the perfect scenario. He just dunked. That's it. He didn't even do a fancy dunk (of which I'd still accept). He scored a random couple of points and the game ended. I think there's absolutely no reason this shouldn't have been a non-issue. Lillard should have slammed, the announcers should have maybe mentioned it, or maybe just kept wrapping the game up, "And so a quick bucket there and this one's just about in the books, the Blazers will take it..." and both teams should have retired to their respective locker rooms, more concerned with the other 47 minutes and 55 seconds of the game.
What if you don't know and just start flipping everyone cause it's fun? Then afterwards someone told you that in American culture, it's not nice to do it. That's basically what happened to Lillard.
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:05 PM   #27
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Default Re: I'm still young to the game... why do you have to hold the ball...

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamgine
What if you don't know and just start flipping everyone cause it's fun? Then afterwards someone told you that in American culture, it's not nice to do it. That's basically what happened to Lillard.
That's sort of why I mentioned the receiver reasoning for intent. I've had friends flip me off and I know they didn't mean it seriously. I do not have to pull them aside and lecture them on American culture because they understand it already, they just clearly did not use it with malicious intent.

In Lillard's case, I will just about bet my life that he understands it's poor sportsmanship to make a mockery of the competition when you're winning. He just figured that a random, routine, and plain jane two-hand dunk had no business being taken offensively. It wasn't him mocking the Bulls, it was just him playing. It's more similarly comparable to me walking down the street at night and someone coming up to me and saying, "Just so you know, we don't do that here. It's just, people take it the wrong way. I know you didn't mean anything by it, but it's just culture."
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:07 PM   #28
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Default Re: I'm still young to the game... why do you have to hold the ball...

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Old 11-19-2012, 02:08 PM   #29
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Default Re: I'm still young to the game... why do you have to hold the ball...

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Originally Posted by ChrisPosh
P*ssy ass Bulls players "O.M.G. did-did you just dunk..... IN A BASKETBALL GAME???!?!? "

Fukk outta here with that sensitive princess attitude, wasn't like he was running up the court with his hands gesturing as if to pleasure himself

I don't really care in that instance. But there are people who would hard foul him there. Regardless it was risky and not in the best interest of the team(he could have gotten hurt).
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:15 PM   #30
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Default Re: I'm still young to the game... why do you have to hold the ball...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rake2204
That's sort of why I mentioned the receiver reasoning for intent. I've had friends flip me off and I know they didn't mean it seriously. I do not have to pull them aside and lecture them on American culture because they understand it already, they just clearly did not use it with malicious intent.

In Lillard's case, I will just about bet my life that he understands it's poor sportsmanship to make a mockery of the competition when you're winning. He just figured that a random, routine, and plain jane two-hand dunk had no business being taken offensively. It wasn't him mocking the Bulls, it was just him playing. It's more similarly comparable to me walking down the street at night and someone coming up to me and saying, "Just so you know, we don't do that here. It's just, people take it the wrong way. I know you didn't mean anything by it, but it's just culture."
I guess when you flip people off, gotta be ready for them to get offended, even if you don't mean it. Lillard might not mean it, but the gesture is taken as disrespect, just like flipping people can be taken as disrespect.
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