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Old 11-13-2012, 07:29 AM   #1
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Default Is Joe Dumars the most overrated GM in current NBA?

People praised him for what he did with the Pistons from 2003-2008, he was like one of the best GMs in the league. The decisions to sign Larry Brown in 2004 and trade for Rasheed Wallace were really impressive back then. Lately, however, what he's been doing was way worse than just mediocre.

The infamous Billups trade for Iverson killed the Pistons, effectively turned a title contender to a below 50% team. Ironically the Nuggets became revitalized after the trade, it marked Melo's first playoffs series win and saved George Karl's job.

The Pistons havent made playoffs since 2009, and in the last two seasons they have been just getting worse and worse. And this season, they started 0-8. Does not look to me the losing streak will end anytime soon. The Pistons did make good moves in draft picks, but cant really give credits to Joe Dumars for that.

His FA signing aint impressive at all, Charlie Villaneuva and Ben Gorden both got contracts bigger than they deserved. Perhaps it was because the Pistons aint a big market team, but Joe Dumars does seem clueless evaluating these players values.

So what do you think? Is Joe Dumars the most overrated GM in this league right now? Dude receives much more credits than he deserves, hes probably just making moves without realizing how good they will turn out to be. Cant get lucky all the time, unfortunately.

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Old 11-13-2012, 08:04 AM   #2
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Default Re: Is Joe Dumars the most overrated GM in current NBA?

Dumars has been on such a downward slide that I'm not even sure you can call him overrated.

For me, he lost credibility with the Darko pick back in 2003
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:16 AM   #3
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Default Re: Is Joe Dumars the most overrated GM in current NBA?

This question has been asked over and over again and it is getting old.

Dumars isn't the greatest GM out there. We all know that. But I would still chose him over most.

The Chauncey trade was meant to be a Piston killer. Although it did have a chance of working momentarily with Iverson and clearly it didn't. That trade woke Billups up from his slumber and he had a couple of very good seasons.

Yes, yes we know, Gordon and Charlie were terrible signings.

Aside from that this team is going through a rebuild. It puzzles me why you are not giving him any credit for draft selections and yet a pick like Darko was a
all his fault right? Give me a break. Drummond and Monroe could very well be one of the NBAs best front courts in the future. Then you have Knight who is struggling but could still pan out. Singler and English are both going to be very good role players on this team. As rookies they have already stepped up. Jerebko was another solid Dumars pick.

If the Pistons head back into the lottery, I'm okay with that. If we can get a stud two or three guy that can score at will out of it then this team is going to have a hell of a future.

So no, Dumars isn't overrated. Most people don't rate him very high anyway. How many GMs have won a championship? We see all these great teams come and go without winning one. Denver failed to win anything with Carmelo and while they might be fun to watch I don't see them doing anything significant.
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:44 AM   #4
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Default Re: Is Joe Dumars the most overrated GM in current NBA?

He's made good moves and bad moves. He has a championship on his résumé which would automatically make him one of the top GM's. His current building blocks of Monroe, Knight and Drummond look good so far. If I was him I'd start moving out even more guys like Prince, Maxiell, Charlie V and Stuckey. Try and find a legit 2 guard to run with Knight rather than a 1/2 hybrid like Stuckey.
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:41 AM   #5
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Default Re: Is Joe Dumars the most overrated GM in current NBA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoopaddict08
This question has been asked over and over again and it is getting old.

Dumars isn't the greatest GM out there. We all know that. But I would still chose him over most.

The Chauncey trade was meant to be a Piston killer. Although it did have a chance of working momentarily with Iverson and clearly it didn't. That trade woke Billups up from his slumber and he had a couple of very good seasons.

Yes, yes we know, Gordon and Charlie were terrible signings.

Aside from that this team is going through a rebuild. It puzzles me why you are not giving him any credit for draft selections and yet a pick like Darko was a
all his fault right? Give me a break. Drummond and Monroe could very well be one of the NBAs best front courts in the future. Then you have Knight who is struggling but could still pan out. Singler and English are both going to be very good role players on this team. As rookies they have already stepped up. Jerebko was another solid Dumars pick.

If the Pistons head back into the lottery, I'm okay with that. If we can get a stud two or three guy that can score at will out of it then this team is going to have a hell of a future.

So no, Dumars isn't overrated. Most people don't rate him very high anyway. How many GMs have won a championship? We see all these great teams come and go without winning one. Denver failed to win anything with Carmelo and while they might be fun to watch I don't see them doing anything significant.
I am in agreement. It also did not help when Detroit's owner passed away and all transactions were put on hold for multiple years while they waited for a new owner to purchase. I feel that sort of delayed the process Detroit's going through right now.

Separately, I also agree with you about the whole idea of some people blaming Dumars for bad decisions but referencing luck for any good decisions he made. Perhaps at the time he overpaid for both Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva, but I'm not sure there was a lot of people in the basketball community who'd believe Villa would end up averaging 1.5 points just a few years later. And signing a young player coming off a 21ppg season and a monster playoffs (Gordon)? Again, likely paid too much, but the move itself made sense and there wasn't a ton of folks (though there were a few, there always is) who thought Gordon would struggle like he did in Detroit.

To come back to Darko, the Pistons were solid at four positions and it was clear and apparent their one pressing need was a frontcourt mate for Ben Wallace. With the hype and lore surrounding foreign players at the time (and Darko in particular) combined with the firsthand looks that many scouts made, with Detroit in a perfect position to take a chance (already being an Eastern Conference Finalist the year before), the Pistons snagged the player many believed would end up how Chris Bosh actually did end up.

I say it all the time, but so much of GM'ing incorporates merely making decisions that seem to make sense, then hoping they pan out. Dumars has had some pan out, and he's had some not. For instance, drafting Andre Drummond made sense to many, yes? Yet if he ends up as a giant bust, is Dumars to blame? And if Royce White ends up being a 21 and 12 guy, does that fall on Dumars for selecting Drummond ahead of him?

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Old 11-13-2012, 10:17 AM   #6
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Default Re: Is Joe Dumars the most overrated GM in current NBA?

personally i think Rip Hamilton and Ben Wallace becoming the players they were was dumb luck. i watched the Wizards back then and it wasn't evident at all, but i guess you have to give credit where its due since they did become great players. i don't know if Dumars was behind all of that but i think he got lucky more than him being some great evaluator, and i would've said that before all of the horrible he's done after that.
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:21 AM   #7
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Default Re: Is Joe Dumars the most overrated GM in current NBA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rake2204
I am in agreement. It also did not help when Detroit's owner passed away and all transactions were put on hold for multiple years while they waited for a new owner to purchase. I feel that sort of delayed the process Detroit's going through right now.

Separately, I also agree with you about the whole idea of some people blaming Dumars for bad decisions but referencing luck for any good decisions he made. Perhaps at the time he overpaid for both Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva, but I'm not sure there was a lot of people in the basketball community who'd believe Villa would end up averaging 1.5 points just a few years later. And signing a young player coming off a 21ppg season and a monster playoffs (Gordon)? Again, likely paid too much, but the move itself made sense and there wasn't a ton of folks (though there were a few, there always is) who thought Gordon would struggle like he did in Detroit.

To come back to Darko, the Pistons were solid at four positions and it was clear and apparent their one pressing need was a frontcourt mate for Ben Wallace. With the hype and lore surrounding foreign players at the time (and Darko in particular) combined with the firsthand looks that many scouts made, with Detroit in a perfect position to take a chance (already being an Eastern Conference Finalist the year before), the Pistons snagged the player many believed would end up how Chris Bosh actually did end up.

I say it all the time, but so much of GM'ing incorporates merely making decisions that seem to make sense, then hoping they pan out. Dumars has had some pan out, and he's had some not. For instance, drafting Andre Drummond made sense to many, yes? Yet if he ends up as a giant bust, is Dumars to blame? And if Royce White ends up being a 21 and 12 guy, does that fall on Dumars for selecting Drummond ahead of him?

ughh most people even here laughed at the Villanueva and Ben Gordon signings and money/commitment they paid them. Bulls and Bucks were smart enough to not even bother.

his recent picks seem to have been pretty decent but post Championship team up to very recently he's been one of the worst.
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:31 AM   #8
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Default Re: Is Joe Dumars the most overrated GM in current NBA?

First you have to be considerd god to have the overrated tag. Noone really rates Dumars as a GM.Stuckey contract, Billups trade and the AI fiasco along with Darko, Gordon and Charlie V, all compound any case he had for being an worthwhile GM
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:19 AM   #9
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Default Re: Is Joe Dumars the most overrated GM in current NBA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzuki
ughh most people even here laughed at the Villanueva and Ben Gordon signings and money/commitment they paid them. Bulls and Bucks were smart enough to not even bother.

his recent picks seem to have been pretty decent but post Championship team up to very recently he's been one of the worst.
Yeah, I had a feeling I wasn't wording things as well as I should have regarding Gordon and Villanueva. I look a little wishy-washy, saying "maybe" he paid too much. The facts are, he paid too much. However, with that said, there's no way I would have expected both players to perform as poorly as they have.

And I understand there's always folks who take the worst possible angle on every deal just so when the worst case scenario actually happens they can say I told you so, but I'm not sure there was much of anyone, regardless of how much they disliked the deals, that expected Ben Gordon to average about half as many points in Detroit as he did in Chicago while also predicting Charlie Villanueva would more or less play himself out of the league by the third year of his deal (at age 27).

I may disagree with your assessment of Dumars being one of the worst GM's post-championship. Even after '04, Dumars did a fine job of replacing lost talent and finding worth in free agency and the draft. Unfortunately for Joe now, I think it's a lot easier to find pieces when you only need to provide a supporting cast to an established set of starters (Chauncey, Rip, Tay, Ben, Sheed) as opposed to finding talent that can become established starters. Back then, Dumars could move and shake and acquire players like Antonio McDyess and Maurice Evans while drafting effective backups low in the first or second round (Carlos Delfino, Amir Johnson, Jason Maxiell). I thought he did a pretty nice job for a while post-championship.

I think it's quite clear the wheels to the Detroit dynasty began to fall off after Chauncey left. Even then, while many disagreed with Chauncey leaving at the time, I'm not sure a lot of people planned on watching him revitalize himself in Denver. There was a real sense of routine and relaxation around Detroit around that time. Many folks felt as if the Pistons were satisfied with the status quo - i.e. plodding to the playoffs, grinding to the Eastern Conference Finals at which point they'd fall behind then declare they weren't worried before eventually losing. The people asked for a change, I just think they were expecting it to come from dealing Rip or Tay, not Chauncey.

Even then, to exchange a guard who many had felt had grown complacent (Billups) for another guard the same age who was coming off a 27ppg season on the best field goal percentage of his career, didn't seem like an altogether terrible idea to me. The Pistons' offense was terribly stagnant in the previous year's playoff loss and Iverson was instant offense. Now why didn't it work? Well, I think we know why, and I think a lot of people knew why at the time - Iverson may have brought about more scoring (in theory) but the loss of Billups meant a loss of control and leadership. Plus, I think Iverson and Hamilton conflicted more than some folks imagined they would.

Anyhow, to cut a long story short, the Billups deal sent Detroit spiraling and William Davidson (Detroit's owner) passed away in March of '09. After being able to work through the off-season (making those poor deals with Gordon and Villanueva) the Pistons were more or less unable to make any roster moves until they found a new owner (which wouldn't come until June of 2011). It feels like they've been playing catch-up ever since.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:41 PM   #10
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Default Re: Is Joe Dumars the most overrated GM in current NBA?

He has the change to hit the reset button this offseason. Big cap space and probably a high draft pick.

I'll wait to judge him until after that. The last round of free agent signings were obviously terrible and there have been a number of bad trades as well, but he still my respect for six straight ECFs and a championship.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:44 PM   #11
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Default Re: Is Joe Dumars the most overrated GM in current NBA?

Hard to overrate a guy who everyone knows is awful.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:04 PM   #12
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Default Re: Is Joe Dumars the most overrated GM in current NBA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiddlovesnets
People praised him for what he did with the Pistons from 2003-2008, he was like one of the best GMs in the league. The decisions to sign Larry Brown in 2004 and trade for Rasheed Wallace were really impressive back then. Lately, however, what he's been doing was way worse than just mediocre.

The infamous Billups trade for Iverson killed the Pistons, effectively turned a title contender to a below 50% team. Ironically the Nuggets became revitalized after the trade, it marked Melo's first playoffs series win and saved George Karl's job.

The Pistons havent made playoffs since 2009, and in the last two seasons they have been just getting worse and worse. And this season, they started 0-8. Does not look to me the losing streak will end anytime soon. The Pistons did make good moves in draft picks, but cant really give credits to Joe Dumars for that.

His FA signing aint impressive at all, Charlie Villaneuva and Ben Gorden both got contracts bigger than they deserved. Perhaps it was because the Pistons aint a big market team, but Joe Dumars does seem clueless evaluating these players values.

So what do you think? Is Joe Dumars the most overrated GM in this league right now? Dude receives much more credits than he deserves, hes probably just making moves without realizing how good they will turn out to be. Cant get lucky all the time, unfortunately.

It will end on Friday when we beat the Magic at home.
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:17 PM   #13
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Default Re: Is Joe Dumars the most overrated GM in current NBA?

It's not like he hasn't made mistakes, but he's definitely not the most over rated GM. I posted in another thread that FA's aren't fighting their way into Detroit. It's not like the Pistons were going to land Paul, Williams, or Howard, lol. That really means the way to build is through the draft. That takes time. Our last three drafts have been very good, especially considering where they drafted at. Knight, Monroe, and Drummond all look like they have solid futures ahead of them. One more really good draft pick this year could turn things around. I'd like to see Joe D not go crazy in free agency this offseason. Keep the money & space for when the young guys need to be resigned. There's nobody that's going to be available to Detroit that will change the franchise around.

For anyone who brings up the Darko drafting, they don't have a clue what they're talking about. Almost any GM would've drafted him there, and there was even talks of him going #1 over Lebron. I don't hold that over Joe D. Yes, signing BG for way too much money was wrong. Charlie's contract wasn't terrible at the time. Now that we see he hasn't produced it looks worse, but back then that wasn't a horrible signing. Detroit was one of the best teams in the league for a decade. It had to come to an end at some point. They're in good shape to turn things around now.
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:25 PM   #14
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Default Re: Is Joe Dumars the most overrated GM in current NBA?

Are the Pistons just tanking this season or do they really refuse to play Drummond and Monroe together? (I haven't watched any of their games) Monroe might be the best passing big in the game right now (maybe Gasol bros).
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:35 PM   #15
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Default Re: Is Joe Dumars the most overrated GM in current NBA?

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Are the Pistons just tanking this season or do they really refuse to play Drummond and Monroe together? (I haven't watched any of their games) Monroe might be the best passing big in the game right now (maybe Gasol bros).

They're definitely not tanking. If they did that then we'd have top 5 picks the last 3 years. Over the last 3 years at the end of the season we'll end up winning a couple of extra games and that's how Detroit has ended up with the picks they have.

Drummond needs to earn his playing time. While he's shown us flashes of being good, he is still very raw. We'll see more of him. It's early yet. While I agree he needs a bit more PT, it's not like all of his games have been amazing either. Maxiell hasn't been playing bad. I'll be the first one to say Maxiell has no business starting in the NBA. He's a nice player off the bench, but he has been alright. Jerebko matches up well too and he eats up some of those minutes. It's something that Frank has addressed and he's even said they will play more together.
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