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Old 10-22-2012, 11:59 PM   #31
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Default Re: Durant, Lebron and Kobe Playoff Gamewinners:

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Originally Posted by maybeshewill13
AWWW SHIIII, 3:30 AM!!
Wake up early then nikka
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:08 AM   #32
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Default Re: Durant, Lebron and Kobe Playoff Gamewinners:

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Originally Posted by avonbarksdale
anyone who would give lebron the last shot before kobe is a bit retarded

Those facts as you can see strongly suggest otherwise, infact they suggest that the opposite decision to yours would be more "retarded"...

The main reason Lebron hit more of his gamewinners than Kobe in playoffs is because he is/was better at creating/making higher percentage shots (shots closer to the basket) and prefers better shot selection... same difference with their actual scoring...

If you want a last second jumpshot you could probably go with Kobe if you wish as their shooting accuracy from the perimeter is pretty much equal lately... no significant difference...

But if there is enough time left on the shotclock... Lebron will more often than not take/make a higher percentage shot compared to Kobe (which gives you logically a better chance to win), he can also more willingly than Kobe pass to an entirely open guy to take a shot at his sweetspot (which gives you logically another greater chance to win)....
Going by Kobes history in those situations Kobe thinks majority of time only "SHOOT!" (which is most often a lower percentage shot compared to what Lebron would do or sometimes even a very bad/very tough shot selection type of play, it does look pretty damn sweet and looks more impressive when it does go in though)...

This is where Durant comes in, Durant is A: he is a better jumpshooter than both Lebron/Kobe (from anywhere) and B: he is almost as good as Lebron with taking/making a higher percentage shot... and has excellent shot selection....

Compared to Lebron & Kobe Durant is supposed to be hitting gamewinning shots/clutch jumpshots more accurately based on this simple logic (and he is!).

Last edited by pauk : 10-23-2012 at 12:19 AM.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:09 AM   #33
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Default Re: Durant, Lebron and Kobe Playoff Gamewinners:

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Originally Posted by RRR3
Wake up early then nikka



What happens if I don't show up, do I just get the scraps lol? Will do my best to get up, day off work tomorrow so should be good. Try crank out some D3 to keep me up.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:09 AM   #34
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Default Re: Durant, Lebron and Kobe Playoff Gamewinners:

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Originally Posted by EnoughSaid
I love how when LeBron was in his first season with Miami and missed a bunch of clutch shots in a row throughout the course of the season, people went crazy and called him a choke artist. That stopped in the Playoffs after he went in against the Celtics and Bulls. Now when someone brings up a negative thing about Kobe, it doesn't matter and no one cares.
Those shots from LeBron were so cold and shut everyone up. Especially Lebron and Dwade's comeback in Game 5 against the Bulls. .

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauk
I can dig up some more players made/missed Gamewinners in playoffs if you are interested? Durant, Lebron & Kobe was just an obligatory starting point...
Look up Dwyane Wade's.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:10 AM   #35
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Default Re: Durant, Lebron and Kobe Playoff Gamewinners:

Not the first time I've posted this, and it won't be the last. Old, but not totally out dated yet.


http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2012/0...ds/#more-35626

Quote:
On Friday night against the Utah Jazz, LeBron James put up one of those statlines where you would know it was him without even looking at the name attached to it: 35 points, 16-for-24 shooting, 10 rebounds, six assists, three blocks and no turnovers. Ridiculous, right? Too bad the Heat still lost the game by a point, and when LeBron passed out of a double team to a wide open Udonis Haslem for the potential game-winning shot — and Haslem missed the shot as the clock expired — the buzz on Twitter was mostly about how LeBron “wilted in the clutch” yet again.

The “LeBron isn’t clutch” narrative annoys me because too many people narrowly define clutch as “making the game-winning shot”. If you watched that final play and you’re completely objective about LeBron, you should agree with me that LeBron made the right play. LeBron was double-covered, Haslem is a decent mid-range shooter, and Haslem was open. Just because Kobe Bryant probably would have taken the shot in that situation, that doesn’t make it the right play.

Of course, what would be defined as “the right play” for most basketball players doesn’t apply to Kobe Bryant — according to some people, anyway. If you replace LeBron with Kobe and Haslem with Pau Gasol on that same play, I imagine most Lakers fans would want Kobe to take that shot. And the reason why they want Kobe to take that game-deciding shot is because of his reputation as the best clutch shooter in the NBA.

This reputation doesn’t just exist in the minds of fans. In a January survery of NBA General Managers by NBA.com, 48.1 percent of the respondents said they would want Kobe “taking a shot with the game on the line”. In last year’s survey, Kobe was named by 78.6 percent of the respondents. Most likely, the GMs feel this way about Kobe for the same reason his fans do — he’s made a lot of memorable buzzer-beaters in his career. He’s also missed a lot of those shots, and I’ve long believed that the quantity of his misses gets overlooked in this narrative.

Luckily for us, Basketball-Reference.com recently launched their “Shot Finder” which claims to track every shot from the 2000-01 season through to this season — up to the February 28 games, as of this writing. The table below shows the results of my Shot Finder query with the following criteria: regular season or playoffs, fourth quarter or overtime, 0:05 or less remaining, shot to tie or to take the lead. The Shot Finder doesn’t let you query across multiple seasons, so I did it for this season and the previous two seasons and added up the numbers for 35 of the most prominent players in terms of overall fame/ability or their tendency to take these shots. If you think I excluded a worthy player, feel free to look him up yourself.



As you can see, I sorted the results by field goals made. Part of me wants to dismiss the meaning behind these numbers because of the sample size — would you be comfortable making an absolute judgement on a player’s shooting skill based on 23 or fewer field goal attempts? But when it comes right down to it, these numbers do absolutely nothing to change Kobe’s and LeBron’s reputations.

As it turns out, Kevin Durant appears to have the most undeserved reputation as a clutch performer. He received 30.8 percent of the GM votes for “taking a shot with the game on the line” and while he’s taken more of those shots than anyone else, his results in those situations have been dismal. As Skeets and Tas have frequently pointed out, Thunder coach Scott Brooks’ playcalling probably deserves a lot of the blame for this.

For me, the most compelling number in this table is the combined field goal percentage for these players. We would all probably guess that the field goal percentage in these situations would be lower than in other situations because of the defensive intensity associated with game-deciding scenarios. But the shockingly poor field goal percentages of so many of the game’s elite players in these situations makes me wonder if coaches should start experimenting with using their stars as decoys in clutch moments. If the defense has a pretty good idea who is going to take that shot, the difficulty level for that player making the shot clearly goes way up.

Small sample sizes and all, it’s hard to make a good case that LeBron should have taken that final shot on Friday. Haslem was open, LeBron wasn’t, and LeBron doesn’t appear comfortable taking those shots, regardless. As for Kobe, it appears I owe him and his fans an apology for doubting his legend as much as I have. I still believe the concept of “clutch shooting” is overrated, but I certainly can’t continue implying that Kobe’s reputation is undeserved.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:13 AM   #36
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Default Re: Durant, Lebron and Kobe Playoff Gamewinners:

That's the wonder of statistics. Tweak it in a certain way and it'll fit your agenda perfectly.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:14 AM   #37
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Default Re: Durant, Lebron and Kobe Playoff Gamewinners:

The sad thing about Kobe stans passing this off is that if Kobe had an incredible % it would be bought up in every discussion.

That said I would probably still trust a prime Kobe with last shot, but the gap in selection between the three players is not as big as people would make it out to be. I'm semi interested in knowing melos record.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:15 AM   #38
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Default Re: Durant, Lebron and Kobe Playoff Gamewinners:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Droid101
Not the first time I've posted this, and it won't be the last. Old, but not totally out dated yet.


http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2012/0...ds/#more-35626

this.

real working links and not some screen shot from someone on Excel.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:17 AM   #39
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Default Re: Durant, Lebron and Kobe Playoff Gamewinners:

Quote:
Originally Posted by maybeshewill13


What happens if I don't show up, do I just get the scraps lol? Will do my best to get up, day off work tomorrow so should be good. Try crank out some D3 to keep me up.
It'll autopick based on yahoo rankings. You can make your own predraft rankings and as long as you make sure to set it to pick those in an autodraft situation it will base the picks off your rankings.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:17 AM   #40
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Default Re: Durant, Lebron and Kobe Playoff Gamewinners:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyrieTheFuture
That's the wonder of statistics. Tweak it in a certain way and it'll fit your agenda perfectly.

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Old 10-23-2012, 12:31 AM   #41
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Default Re: Durant, Lebron and Kobe Playoff Gamewinners:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Droid101
Not the first time I've posted this, and it won't be the last. Old, but not totally out dated yet.


http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2012/0...ds/#more-35626

Those are basketball-reference single shots matching criteria... only regular season... and only past 2 seasons (more like almost 1 and a half).... and only 0:05 or less remaining...

Problem 1 - This nullifies the gamewinning/gametying shot you had with 0:06 left and above (which Lebron/Kobe did have, including misses)...

Problem 2 - This nullifies their entire career of total gamewinning/gametying shots...

Problem 3 - This nullifies the playoffs (and even if playoffs were included then problem #1 and #2 would also exist for it)


With other words, that there is absolutely useless unless you want to know exactly how everything looked like with those specific criterias (horrible criterias may i add)....

Last edited by pauk : 10-23-2012 at 12:33 AM.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:32 AM   #42
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Default Re: Durant, Lebron and Kobe Playoff Gamewinners:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauk
Those are basketball-reference single shots matching criteria... only regular season... and only past 2 seasons.... and only 0:05 or less remaining...

Problem 1 - This nullifies the gamewinning/gametying shot you had with 0:06 left and above...

Problem 2 - This nullifies their entire career of total gamewinning/gametying shots...

Problem 3 - This nullifies the playoffs (and even if playoffs were included then problem #1 and #2 would also exist for it)


With other words, that there is absolutely useless unless you want to know exactly how everything looked like with those specific criterias (horrible criterias may i add)....

Or like Droid101, you're a Kobe stan. In that case it's not useless
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:32 AM   #43
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Default Re: Durant, Lebron and Kobe Playoff Gamewinners:

Kobe went through a huge slump from 2002-2004, Lebron is likely to go through one as well. As a matter a fact he has not been that great. He's 1-6 on his last 7 attempts

Last edited by G-Funk : 10-23-2012 at 12:34 AM.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:33 AM   #44
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Default Re: Durant, Lebron and Kobe Playoff Gamewinners:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LongLiveTheKing
Look up Dwyane Wade's.

I think all-time in the playoffs, Wade's 2-9 or 2-10. He did miss 1 against Boston in Game 4. I don't recall any other scenarios where he took an attempt.

I know he's been bad at converting those type of scenario shots... Then again, not a lot of players are.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:34 AM   #45
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Default Re: Durant, Lebron and Kobe Playoff Gamewinners:

Out of those three, I rather have Durant with the ball in his hands in the waning moments of a game. And I think that's probably the consensus of most sensible basketball fans. No amount of statistical maneuvering will change that Pauk - Lebron, still after 9 years in the league, exhibits too much uncertainty in pressured moments. He altered that trajectory this past post-season in his favor, but I want to personally see that comfort, confidence, and certainty throughout multiple seasons - as illustrated by players like Melo, Chris Paul, ect - before I label someone 'the must clutch player in the league.'

From what I've seen the last 2 seasons, that title belongs to Durant. Lebron is still the better overall player, but give me Durant's formidable jumpshot over Lebron's shaky jumpshot in the final moments in a game.

I do agree that Kobe over the last 2-3 years has grown to be the least likely to make a gamewinning shot/play out of those three. Mostly due to a decline
in ahleticism, inhibiting him to blow by his opponents, and lingering injuries to his fingers and wrist that negatively affect his ball handling skills.

Kobe was once the most clutch player in the league. Those were in his young years, his prime years, and his peak years. He's long removed from those years, and so is his hold on the "most clutch" title.
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