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Old 09-20-2012, 11:09 PM   #76
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

This is no debate.. Scottie by far..
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:10 PM   #77
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
HIS SCORING WENT UP BECAUSE HIS MINUTES WENT UP. JESUS CHRIST

That's not why his scoring went up. His scoring went up because all the other high scorers on the team faded away or retired. He was the Celtics leading scorer by his 2nd season. And he would finish 1st or 2nd for the next several years.
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:10 PM   #78
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by KOBE143
This is no debate.. Scottie by far..
Scottie stan ahah
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:16 PM   #79
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by nycelt84
Havlicek spent the 60's playing on the most balanced team in basketball where one player did not dominate the team in scoring. And there was no way he was going to get a lot of MVP votes playing with Bill Russell and Sam Jones when they were at their apex.

And he was absolutely considered on the level of West and Robertson by 1969. The opinion that John Havlicek was the best all around player for a time in the early 1970's was not an isolated one.
Cut the excuses. If Hondo was so great he would gotten more MVP votes.


And he was considered one of the best by the late 60s/early 70s because the ABA was taking a lot of basketballs top players. Throw Malone, Dr.J, Hawkins, and a few others in the NBA, and he would've never sniffed an MVP vote
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:16 PM   #80
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Was Hondo really that domnant scoring the ball? His scoring stats rival Pippens. His scoring stats jumped because his minutes jumped.


Are we really gonna try to compare statistics from the 60s with the 90s? In 30 minutes per, Hondo was avg 20 shots a night. In 38 minutes, Pip was avg 15.



The agenda people have against Pippen is hysterical. Now Pippens stats get compared to 60s players.


One thing that frustrates me with you Biz. Is you just can't be unbiased. Context only enters your POV when its convienent. So what if those great small fowards scored more than Pippen. Pippen was much more dominant on defense. Were most of those player mentioned good defenders? Yes. AND PIPPEN WAS A GOOD SCORER.


And no scoring isn't the most important aspect of basketball. Defense, Rebounding, Offense, and teamwork are all on equal level


If a team goes out and try to outscore their opponant and give a lackluster defensive effort? They're gonna lose


If a team sets out to go iso againt their opponant, they're gonna lose.


If a team constantly get domnated on the glas both offensively and defensively, they're gonna lose.


If a team can't score, they're gonna lose.


In comparison to Hondo, then YES Hondo has the clear edge scoring the rock. The comparison is Hondo vs. Pippen. And Hondo has more stage presence being a dominant scorer. If u ask most NBA experts in the know, they will tell u Hondo was a better number one option than Pippen. And it's not always how many points u score, it's also WHEN u score them. Hondo was far more CLUTCH willing a team scoring than Pip ever was. While ALSO being the blueprint for the style that Pippen went on to redefine.

And I can counter your scoring argument in terms of Hondo's minutes by saying he shot long 2 point FG's back then that would be 3 pointers today. Pip had the luxury of playing with the three point line. So that cancels that argument. And many guys couldn't be as durable playing all those minutes anyway. So it should be APPLAUDED that Hondo played all those minutes and not looked at as a crutch in terms of his scoring output. Which by the way peaked out at around 29 points a night. WITHOUT A THREE POINT LINE!!!!!

When did I EVER say scoring was the only thing that matters in bball. I NEVER SAID THAT SHIT! I have ALWAYS SAID scoring was the MOST premium asset in bball. Because the only GUARANTEED STAT which promises a W is points. If u are facing a great defensive team, u would be in great shape if u had a great scorer to combat that!

Last edited by bizil : 09-21-2012 at 12:18 AM.
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:44 PM   #81
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by bizil
In comparison to Hondo, then YES Hondo has the clear edge scoring the rock. The comparison is Hondo vs. Pippen. And Hondo has more stage presence being a dominant scorer. If u ask most NBA experts in the know, they will tell u Hondo was a better number one option than Pippen. And it's not always how many points u score, it's also WHEN u score them. Hondo was far more CLUTCH willing a team scoring than Pip ever was. While ALSO being the blueprint for the style of Pippen went on to redefine.

And I can counter your scoring argument in terms of Hondo's minutes by saying he shot long 2 point FG's back then that would be 3 pointers today. Pip had the luxury of playing with the three point line. So that cancels that argument. And many guys couldn't be as durable playing all those minutes anyway. So it should be APPLAUDED that Hondo played all those minutes and not looked at as a crutch in terms of his scoring output. Which by the way peaked out at around 29 points a night. WITHOUT A THREE POINT LINE!!!!!

When did I EVER say scoring was the only thing that matters in bball. I NEVER SAID THAT SHIT! I have ALWAYS SAID scoring was the MOST premium asset in bball. Because the only GUARANTEED STAT which promises a W is points. If u are facing a great defensive team, u would be in great shape if u had a great scorer to combat that!


Plus Hondo was also a great defensive player, lockdown defender.
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:47 PM   #82
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Cut the excuses. If Hondo was so great he would gotten more MVP votes.


And he was considered one of the best by the late 60s/early 70s because the ABA was taking a lot of basketballs top players. Throw Malone, Dr.J, Hawkins, and a few others in the NBA, and he would've never sniffed an MVP vote

Guess Kareem, West (early 70's), Frazier, Wilt (early 70's), Cowens, McAdoo, Maravich, Rick Barry, Nate Archibald, Elvin Hayes... Mean sh*t.
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:34 AM   #83
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizil
In comparison to Hondo, then YES Hondo has the clear edge scoring the rock. The comparison is Hondo vs. Pippen. And Hondo has more stage presence being a dominant scorer. If u ask most NBA experts in the know, they will tell u Hondo was a better number one option than Pippen. And it's not always how many points u score, it's also WHEN u score them. Hondo was far more CLUTCH willing a team scoring than Pip ever was. While ALSO being the blueprint for the style of Pippen went on to redefine.


And I can counter your scoring argument in terms of Hondo's minutes by saying he shot long 2 point FG's back then that would be 3 pointers today. Pip had the luxury of playing with the three point line. So that cancels that argument. And many guys couldn't be as durable playing all those minutes anyway. So it should be APPLAUDED that Hondo played all those minutes and not looked at as a crutch in terms of his scoring output. Which by the way peaked out at around 29 points a night. WITHOUT A THREE POINT LINE!!!!!
the three point line has never increased scoring. In the mid 90s. The league even tried to increase scoring by moving it in and scoring still went down. All experts accept the fact that you can't compare stats from the 60s with modern basketball. Hondos not avg close to 30 ppg now a days. Its not different thain if I try to say Pippen is a better scorer by looing at their fg%. And I'm not penalizing Hondos minutes per. But to totally dismiis that fact is wrong.


When did I EVER say scoring was the only thing that matters in bball. I NEVER SAID THAT SHIT! I have ALWAYS SAID scoring was the MOST premium asset in bball. Because the only GUARANTEED STAT which promises a W is points. If u are facing a great defensive team, u would be in great shape if u had a great scorer to combat that!
Lol reread my post. I believe I stated that your stance is that the most important facet of basetball is scoring. And that's WRONG. No coach puts offense at a premium over the other facets of basketball. NONE. Other than Dantoni and Nelson. And its no coincidence that they have a combined no championships.
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:36 AM   #84
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SHAQisGOAT
Guess Kareem, West (early 70's), Frazier, Wilt (early 70's), Cowens, McAdoo, Maravich, Rick Barry, Nate Archibald, Elvin Hayes... Mean sh*t.
You ought to be ashamed of yourself making this dumb post.
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:39 AM   #85
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Lol I'm looking at his stats and accolades when he played in the 60s, he only was able to break the top 10 in MVP voting once. And that year he was 10th. Then the highest he ever got was 4th when the ABA was at its apex and took some of the big name players from the NBA and had some big name players.


Just from looking, Hondo was never considered on West or Robinsons level.


And the two years he avg 28 ppg, he played 45 minutes per.

Well many MVPs did West? MVPs are not everything - otherwise Nash would be in the top 10 right?
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:49 AM   #86
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Lol reread my post. I believe I stated that your stance is that the most important facet of basetball is scoring. And that's WRONG. No coach puts offense at a premium over the other facets of basketball. NONE. Other than Dantoni and Nelson. And its no coincidence that they have a combined no championships.

U are missing the point! If whoever scores the most points is the ONLY WAY to win a game, then it HAS to be the most premium asset. And for every Dantoni and Nelson u show me, I can show a team like the Showtime Lakers. Or teams that have 2-3 alpha HOFers.

U are putting words in my mouth. I never said the way Nelson and Dantoni play bball is the ultimate way to play. What I MEAN is most of the premier players in basketball are DOMINANT SCORERS:

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Bird
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron-Big O-Hakeem

In my book, these are the top 12 players of all time. Other than Russell what do these guys have in common? It's the fact that THEY ARE ALL DOMINANT SCORERS. Or in the case of a PG like Magic, can become one at the drop of a hat. Russell is the rare breed who is the exception. Many of these guys on my list WERE ALSO epic defenders. So it's not just scoring that matters.

But don't get it twisted, the Spurs as great a defensive team that they were had Timmy. Those Bulls teams had MJ. Those Pistons teams had Isiah. The Rockets had Hakeem and Drexler. The Knicks had Frazier, Reed, and Monroe. The Heat got Bron and Wade. All of teams I named were GREAT DEFENSIVE TEAMS who ALSO had immortals who were DOMINANT SCORERS! U need guys who can put the ball in the hole AGAINST ALL ODDS! The way u talk, u would take Eddie Jones over George Gervin! Or Mutumbo over Bob McAdoo! Or Dumars over George Gervin! LOL
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:49 AM   #87
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by nycelt84
That's not why his scoring went up. His scoring went up because all the other high scorers on the team faded away or retired. He was the Celtics leading scorer by his 2nd season. And he would finish 1st or 2nd for the next several years.

Exactly. During his seasons 2-5, he averaged 18-21 points a game while playing only 28-32 minutes. To this day, he remains Boston's all-time scoring leader. AND he actually raised his level of play in the playoffs. He averaged 26-9-8 in 1968, 25-10-6 in 1968, and 27-6-6 in 1974 - all years when Boston won. And he had tons of clutch moments from "Havlicek steals the ball" in 1965 to his shot in the famuous triple overtime finals game in 1976, when he was 36 and injured.

Sorry, but he is on a different level than Pippen. To the extent you can compare the two, he was Pippen plus - same great all around game (Russell called him the best all around player ever) and defense but better scoring, leadership, and clutch ability.

Last edited by kizut1659 : 09-21-2012 at 12:51 AM.
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:49 AM   #88
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by kizut1659
Well many MVPs did West? MVPs are not everything - otherwise Nash would be in the top 10 right?
I'm not even talking about winning. He didn't. Come close until half the players capable of winning were playing in the ABA. And even then the best he could do was fourth. Pippen placed third in 94. And had top ten finishes playing alongside Jordan.
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:53 AM   #89
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by kizut1659
Well many MVPs did West? MVPs are not everything - otherwise Nash would be in the top 10 right?

Excellent point! And I guess Shaq and Kobe are inferior to Nash as well! lol MVPs ultimately are OPINIONS that turn into an award. If a reporter doesn't like u or has an agenda, they won't vote for u a lot of the time. Hell Jordan could have been a 10 time MVP! Shaq and Kobe were certainly capable of having three MVPs like Bron does today. The only awards that are FLAT OUT FACTS THROUGH AND THROUGH are championships, gold medals, scoring titles, rebounding titles, assists titles, etc.
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:57 AM   #90
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by kizut1659
Exactly. During his seasons 2-5, he averaged 18-21 points a game while playing only 28-32 minutes. To this day, he remains Boston's all-time scoring leader. AND he actually raised his level of play in the playoffs. He averaged 26-9-8 in 1968, 25-10-6 in 1968, and 27-6-6 in 1974 - all years when Boston won. And he had tons of clutch moments from "Havlicek steals the ball" in 1965 to his shot in the famuous triple overtime finals game in 1976, when he was 36 and injured.

Sorry, but he is on a different level than Pippen. To the extent you can compare the two, he was Pippen plus - same great all around game (Russell called him the best all around player ever) and defense but better scoring, leadership, and clutch ability.

Nothing that I've read about Havlicek would lead me to believe that he was a better leader than Pippen. What have you read that would cause you to believe otherwise?
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