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Old 09-20-2012, 09:17 PM   #61
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by kizut1659
I actually think Havlicek is one of the most underrated players of all time. I don't see for example why he should be ranked much lower, if at all, than Jerry West.
I agree Hondo is underrated. . I have him in the top 20 actually. I'd take him over a lot of guys. Did you know he actually played football in college? I thought that was pretty cool.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:34 PM   #62
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by Freedom Kid7
I agree Hondo is underrated. . I have him in the top 20 actually. I'd take him over a lot of guys. Did you know he actually played football in college? I thought that was pretty cool.

I actually have him top 13. I think he really got screwed historically because in the 60s he played in the Russel-Chamberlain era and the 70s are dark age of basketball. I think this article in SI http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...60/4/index.htm says it all about how great he was considered back in the day.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:42 PM   #63
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by kizut1659
I actually have him top 13. I think he really got screwed historically because in the 60s he played in the Russel-Chamberlain era and the 70s are dark age of basketball. I think this article in SI http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...60/4/index.htm says it all about how great he was considered back in the day.
Who are the three guys you'd take him over in 11 through 13. Seeing as how you said he and West are rated similarily I'd like to see who you have in front of Hondo
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:58 PM   #64
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

In terms of Pippen, he's usually rated by most astute bball fans or experts GOAT wise anywhere from the late 20's down to 40. U would think with his resume that he would be rated somewhere at least in the teens to 20. Why is Pippen not rated that high? The reason why is because he wasn't as dominant scoring the rock as other legendary SF's or SG's. And many of those SG's and SF's were epic all around players themselves. Those are the players that Pip is compared to and that's what hurts him from being rated in the teens on a GOAT list. PG's aren't really penalized for that. Even a guy like Russell at center wasn't either. But if u are a SG or SF, MOST of the icons were dominant scorers.

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Old 09-20-2012, 10:13 PM   #65
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by Freedom Kid7
Who are the three guys you'd take him over in 11 through 13. Seeing as how you said he and West are rated similarily I'd like to see who you have in front of Hondo

I would just group West, Robertson, and Hondo as 12-14 without trying to rank them individually. I have MMalone and Olajuwan as 10-11.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:15 PM   #66
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

my top SF list, based on overall as a player (skills, talent, intagibles), career (accolades and acomplishments), longevity, team and competition goes:

1. Bird
2. Baylor
3. Hondo
4. LeBron (still climbing up the list of course)
5. Erving (can't give the ABA that much weight, his was at his absolute best there, even so he can very well be argued as higher)
6. Barry
7. Pippen
8. Wilkins
9. Worthy

then along the list, in no particular order, you got guys like English, Dantley, Pierce, King, Wilkes, Rodman and Mullin (if you consider them SF's), McGrady, Aguirre, Arizin, Gus Johnson, Lou Hudson, Marques Johnson, Bobby Jones, Grant Hill, Melo and Durant (still climbing up the list)........


Of course some guys are really close, almost tied
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:27 PM   #67
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by SHAQisGOAT
my top SF list, based on overall as a player (skills, talent, intagibles), career (accolades and acomplishments), longevity, team and competition goes:

1. Bird
2. Baylor
3. Hondo
4. LeBron (still climbing up the list of course)
5. Erving (can't give the ABA that much weight, his was at his absolute best there, even so he can very well be argued as higher)
6. Barry
7. Pippen
8. Wilkins
9. Worthy

then along the list, in no particular order, you got guys like English, Dantley, Pierce, King, Wilkes, Rodman and Mullin (if you consider them SF's), McGrady, Aguirre, Arizin, Gus Johnson, Lou Hudson, Marques Johnson, Bobby Jones, Grant Hill, Melo and Durant (still climbing up the list)........


Of course some guys are really close, almost tied

Good list except Hondo over Baylor. Baylor's peak was better (but not as much as people think given the inflated early 60s stats) but Hondo beats him longetivity wise and winning wise - Baylor's lack of championship HAS to count and so does the fact that the Lakers finally one won when Baylor retired midseason.

Actually i think LeBron might have surpassed Baylor already as well.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:37 PM   #68
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kizut1659
Good list except Hondo over Baylor. Baylor's peak was better (but not as much as people think given the inflated early 60s stats) but Hondo beats him longetivity wise and winning wise - Baylor's lack of championship HAS to count and so does the fact that the Lakers finally one won when Baylor retired midseason.

Actually i think LeBron might have surpassed Baylor already as well.


We'll agree to disagree but like I've said it's so close and I can't argue against what you've said, both have cases.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:38 PM   #69
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kizut1659
I would just group West, Robertson, and Hondo as 12-14 without trying to rank them individually. I have MMalone and Olajuwan as 10-11.
Lol I'm looking at his stats and accolades when he played in the 60s, he only was able to break the top 10 in MVP voting once. And that year he was 10th. Then the highest he ever got was 4th when the ABA was at its apex and took some of the big name players from the NBA and had some big name players.


Just from looking, Hondo was never considered on West or Robinsons level.


And the two years he avg 28 ppg, he played 45 minutes per.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:54 PM   #70
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

pippen is the greatest supertasker in NBA history
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:58 PM   #71
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizil
In terms of Pippen, he's usually rated by most astute bball fans or experts GOAT wise anywhere from the late 20's down to 40. U would think with his resume that he would be rated somewhere at least in the teens to 20. Why is Pippen not rated that high? The reason why is because he wasn't as dominant scoring the rock as other legendary SF's or SG's. And many of those SG's and SF's were epic all around players themselves. Those are the players that Pip is compared to and that's what hurts him from being rated in the teens on a GOAT list. PG's aren't really penalized for that. Even a guy like Russell at center wasn't either. But if u are a SG or SF, MOST of the icons were dominant scorers.
Was Hondo really that domnant scoring the ball? His scoring stats rival Pippens. His scoring stats jumped because his minutes jumped.


Are we really gonna try to compare statistics from the 60s with the 90s? In 30 minutes per, Hondo was avg 20 shots a night. In 38 minutes, Pip was avg 15.



The agenda people have against Pippen is hysterical. Now Pippens stats get compared to 60s players.


One thing that frustrates me with you Biz. Is you just can't be unbiased. Context only enters your POV when its convienent. So what if those great small fowards scored more than Pippen. Pippen was much more dominant on defense. Were most of those player mentioned good defenders? Yes. AND PIPPEN WAS A GOOD SCORER.


And no scoring isn't the most important aspect of basketball. Defense, Rebounding, Offense, and teamwork are all on equal level


If a team goes out and try to outscore their opponant and give a lackluster defensive effort? They're gonna lose


If a team sets out to go iso againt their opponant, they're gonna lose.


If a team constantly get domnated on the glas both offensively and defensively, they're gonna lose.


If a team can't score, they're gonna lose.
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:00 PM   #72
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kizut1659
Good list except Hondo over Baylor. Baylor's peak was better (but not as much as people think given the inflated early 60s stats) but Hondo beats him longetivity wise and winning wise - Baylor's lack of championship HAS to count and so does the fact that the Lakers finally one won when Baylor retired midseason.

Actually i think LeBron might have surpassed Baylor already as well.
Lol Hondo played in the 60s too. You guys couldn't put reasoning and context in your post if you tried
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:03 PM   #73
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

In terms of Hondo against his perimeter counterparts in Big O, Baylor, and West, it was mainly due to scoring dominance. But Hondo played in that Celtics Dynasty on deep ass teams early in his career. When the time came for Hondo to step up his scoring he did it and showed he was a top of the line scorer. He just wasn't quite on the level of O, West, Baylor, and later Rick Barry. But in terms of all around brilliance on both sides on the floor, Hondo was the superior perimeter player of his era. Big O of course is the most iconic all around guy, but that was due to stuffing the stat sheet in the big three categories. But when u throw in defense, I think Hondo was the most well rounded.
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:07 PM   #74
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizil
In terms of Hondo against his perimeter counterparts in Big O, Baylor, and West, it was mainly due to scoring dominance. But Hondo played in that Celtics Dynasty on deep ass teams early in his career. When the time came for Hondo to step up his scoring he did it and showed he was a top of the line scorer. He just wasn't quite on the level of O, West, Baylor, and later Rick Barry. But in terms of all around brilliance on both sides on the floor, Hondo was the superior perimeter player of his era. Big O of course is the most iconic all around guy, but that was due to stuffing the stat sheet in the big three categories. But when u throw in defense, I think Hondo was the most well rounded.
HIS SCORING WENT UP BECAUSE HIS MINUTES WENT UP. JESUS CHRIST
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:08 PM   #75
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Lol I'm looking at his stats and accolades when he played in the 60s, he only was able to break the top 10 in MVP voting once. And that year he was 10th. Then the highest he ever got was 4th when the ABA was at its apex and took some of the big name players from the NBA and had some big name players.


Just from looking, Hondo was never considered on West or Robinsons level.


And the two years he avg 28 ppg, he played 45 minutes per.

Havlicek spent the 60's playing on the most balanced team in basketball where one player did not dominate the team in scoring. And there was no way he was going to get a lot of MVP votes playing with Bill Russell and Sam Jones when they were at their apex.

And he was absolutely considered on the level of West and Robertson by 1969. The opinion that John Havlicek was the best all around player for a time in the early 1970's was not an isolated one.
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