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Old 09-20-2012, 02:35 PM   #31
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Pippen is the best two way player to ever play the game. His dominance with his perimeter D and his ability to make plays, handle the ball, and set up plays is something that has yet to be matched. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see him be the #1 option for more than a year and a half. He put up I think 22/9/6/3/1 in '94. He also had a season of 21/7/7 with Mike.
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Old 09-20-2012, 02:39 PM   #32
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by D.J.
Pippen is the best two way player to ever play the game. His dominance with his perimeter D and his ability to make plays, handle the ball, and set up plays is something that has yet to be matched. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see him be the #1 option for more than a year and a half. He put up I think 22/9/6/3/1 in '94. He also had a season of 21/7/7 with Mike.

And Havlicek well surpassed those numbers. He was arguably the best wing defender of his generation, was a number one option on offense, got players involved at a better rate than Pippen, and he could actually shoot consistently.

Havlicek is one of the best all-around players we have ever seen, and he did it over such a long period. Pippen had a small window of dominant play.
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Old 09-20-2012, 02:49 PM   #33
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by Raz
And Havlicek well surpassed those numbers.


In much more playing time. He had back to back seasons playing 45 MPG and had 5 straight seasons playing over 40 MPG. Pippen as a Bull never played in more than 38.6 MPG.


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He was arguably the best wing defender of his generation


Of his generation, but Pippen is the best perimeter defender EVER.


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was a number one option on offense


No one was an option ahead of Mike. And who do you think was the #1 option when Mike left? Sure wasn't Horace Grant or B.J. Armstrong.


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got players involved at a better rate than Pippen


Multiple players on the '94 Bulls had career years with Pippen leading the way.


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and he could actually shoot consistently.


Such a consistent shooter he shot less than 44% for his career and only 45-46% in his prime. Pippen shot 49% in '94 and never less than 46% until '98. He's also a career 47% shooter.


Quote:
Havlicek is one of the best all-around players we have ever seen, and he did it over such a long period. Pippen had a small window of dominant play.


Again, we don't penalize Pippen because he played with Jordan. And we saw what he could do as the #1 option.
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Old 09-20-2012, 02:54 PM   #34
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Old 09-20-2012, 02:57 PM   #35
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by D.J.
In much more playing time. He had back to back seasons playing 45 MPG and had 5 straight seasons playing over 40 MPG. Pippen as a Bull never played in more than 38.6 MPG.

So he is going to be penalized for being an ironman? Pippen didn't play that many minutes, and his career was still shorter, shittier and without the same peak.

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Of his generation, but Pippen is the best perimeter defender EVER.

I'm going to go ahead an say that Pippen was the better defender, but I to say he is the best ever is debatable.


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No one was an option ahead of Mike. And who do you think was the #1 option when Mike left? Sure wasn't Horace Grant or B.J. Armstrong.

So why didn't he put up higher scoring numbers if he was so great as a number one option?


Quote:
Multiple players on the '94 Bulls had career years with Pippen leading the way.

The fact that they were Jordan-less and played more like a team may have something to do with that.


Quote:
Such a consistent shooter he shot less than 44% for his career and only 45-46% in his prime. Pippen shot 49% in '94 and never less than 46% until '98. He's also a career 47% shooter.

Different eras. Havlicek never had the benefit of playing with a 3 point line. Perimeter players FG% rose after the introduction of the 3 point line.

Quote:
Again, we don't penalize Pippen because he played with Jordan. And we saw what he could do as the #1 option.

As a number 1 option, he is still far behind the kind of output we saw from Havlicek.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:07 PM   #36
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raz
So he is going to be penalized for being an ironman? Pippen didn't play that many minutes, and his career was still shorter, shittier and without the same peak.


You lost all credibility when you called Pippen's career shittier.


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I'm going to go ahead an say that Pippen was the better defender, but I to say he is the best ever is debatable.


He is the GOAT perimeter defender. That's not debatable.


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So why didn't he put up higher scoring numbers if he was so great as a number one option?


Because he had other responsibilities. He had to take an even larger role on D and had to set up for his teammates. 22 PPG considering he had larger responsibilities in other areas is pretty damn good. He was averaging just under 9 RPG, almost 6 APG, and 3 SPG. How many points did you expect from him, 30?


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The fact that they were Jordan-less and played more like a team may have something to do with that.


Or the fact that Pippen played a large role in guys like Horace Grant and B.J. Armstrong having career years. Not to mention Armstrong was an All-Star, deservedly or not.


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Different eras. Havlicek never had the benefit of playing with a 3 point line. Perimeter players FG% rose after the introduction of the 3 point line.


He did start shooting threes on a somewhat consistent basis until '95. And during the first 3-peat, he very seldom shot threes.


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As a number 1 option, he is still far behind the kind of output we saw from Havlicek.


Bring Havlicek down to 36-37 MPG and we'll see how his output looks.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:09 PM   #37
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
Let's not exaggerate. Even if you plucked him from the 90's Pippen wouldn't end up wreaking any more havoc than a player like say, Gus Johnson. Pippen doesn't offer any more than Gus aside from passing. He was even considered the best all-around defender at that time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwPtBV4TsdU

And yet a player like Havlicek was still considered better.

That and maybe 10 inches in vert. lol

-Smak
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:29 PM   #38
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by D.J.
You lost all credibility when you called Pippen's career shittier.

How is it not? Where is Pippen's finals MVP? Where is Pippen's championship without Jordan?

Hondo won with Russell, who is Jordan's caliber. He also won with Dave Cowens. Pippen couldn't win with Olajuwon and Barkley or those stacked Blazers teams. He had prime Bob Sura like numbers on those Blazer teams, and you want to compare him to Havlicek?

Stupid.


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He is the GOAT perimeter defender. That's not debatable.

You're stating your opinion as fact. Bring some evidence.
Pippen "shutting down" Grant Hill
Pippen "shutting down" Chris Mullin - take note of the match-ups pre-Indiana Pacers
Pippen "shutting down" Nique
Pippen "shutting down" Larry Bird
Pippen "shutting down" Glenn Robinson
Even Ceballos averaged over 20ppg per 36 minutes on Pippen

The only player I could find that Pippen actually limited was Glen Rice. WOW!


Quote:
Because he had other responsibilities. He had to take an even larger role on D and had to set up for his teammates. 22 PPG considering he had larger responsibilities in other areas is pretty damn good. He was averaging just under 9 RPG, almost 6 APG, and 3 SPG. How many points did you expect from him, 30?

So he wasn't as well-rounded and dominant as Havlicek. Hondo could do it all. I guess Pippen couldn't. I would expect a player like Pippen, held in such high regard, would average at least 25ppg without MJ. He didn't come close.



Quote:
Or the fact that Pippen played a large role in guys like Horace Grant and B.J. Armstrong having career years. Not to mention Armstrong was an All-Star, deservedly or not.

So it's not on those players being in their respective primes? Grant had basically the same stats with Penny and Shaq. If they played better it wasn't because of Pippen, it was because they had more opportunity to shine without Jordan around.


Quote:
He did start shooting threes on a somewhat consistent basis until '95. And during the first 3-peat, he very seldom shot threes.

Obviously, you can't comprehend what I'm saying. Havlicek took some long jumpers, and they were not accredited as 3 pointers, because they didn't exist. They also didn't call ticky tack fouls in the 60's and 70's, meaning you could get fouled on jumpers and nothing would be called. The floor was also crammed due to a lack of spacing from having no 3 point line.

Quote:
Bring Havlicek down to 36-37 MPG and we'll see how his output looks.


Why should he be penalized for being an ironman? Pippen was unable to play such large minutes, it was unheard of for a player to average 45 mpg in the 90's.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:32 PM   #39
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by D.J.
Pippen is the best two way player to ever play the game.

I hope this is just a huge exaggeration and not something you actually believe.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:52 PM   #40
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILLsmak
That and maybe 10 inches in vert. lol

-Smak
Pippen doesn't have "10 inches of vert." on Gus lol, if anything he's got a few inches less (that he makes up for in wingspan and reach).
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:53 PM   #41
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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I hope this is just a huge exaggeration and not something you actually believe.

He's stupid. Forgive him.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:59 PM   #42
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raz
So he is going to be penalized for being an ironman? Pippen didn't play that many minutes, and his career was still shorter, shittier and without the same peak.
Pippen did have a prime that went from about 90-98. That's nine seasons. And consider this. You call hondo an ironman? Pippen rarely had a decent off season where rest is concerned. He spent the 90, and 94 seasons rehabbing from offseason surgery. Played in the olypics in 92 and 96. And his teams always went deep into the playoffs.


I'm going to go ahead an say that Pippen was the better defender, but I to say he is the best ever is debatable.




So why didn't he put up higher scoring numbers if he was so great as a number one option?
He had to exert a lot of energy on defense. As well as run the team. If Pippen avg 45 minutes a night, in 94, he'd be pushing 28 ppg too. Along with 11 rebounds, and 8 assists.



The fact that they were Jordan-less and played more like a team may have something to do with that.
neither grant nor armstrong was ever able to duplicate their 94 season. Even Kukoc shot above 50% in 95 without Jordan. And could repeat that feat in 98 without Pippen. The fact is Pippen ran the Bulls offense for 8 years starting in 91. The result? The Bulls finished first in offense three times. Second twice. They were even top 10 in 94 without Jordan.



Different eras. Havlicek never had the benefit of playing with a 3 point line. Perimeter players FG% rose after the introduction of the 3 point line.
Not true. Fg% went down as players began to utilize the three point shot. Its alos funny how you put into context Hondos FG%, but won't do the same for a comparison of their PPG.


As a number 1 option, he is still far behind the kind of output we saw from Havlicek.
Again context. How many PPG, Rbds, and assists would Pippen avg had he been able to play 45 minutes per?
I've never seen Havlicek play so I can't say whose better. But Hondos accomplished more in the NBA than Pippen has.
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Old 09-20-2012, 04:22 PM   #43
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
I've never seen Havlicek play so I can't say whose better. But Hondos accomplished more in the NBA than Pippen has.

Which would put him above him in the all-time rankings, and for that purpose we consider him a better player. I never intend to compare players directly, rather their impact within their respective era. Havlicek made a bigger, and longer impact. End thread.
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Old 09-20-2012, 05:31 PM   #44
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by Raz
Which would put him above him in the all-time rankings, and for that purpose we consider him a better player. I never intend to compare players directly, rather their impact within their respective era. Havlicek made a bigger, and longer impact. End thread.
Not so fast. You first say you stay away from direct comparisons. Then in the sentence directly before make a direct comparison by saying Hondos the better player.



And let's just take you're opinion as gospel. Hondo was regarded higher than Pippen was. What if we include ABA players? Pippen was already considered a top 10 player throughout his career top 5 in 94/95. How much higher would his rank be if you were to take 6-7 top players out of the league like what happened in the 70s when the ABA took such greats as Dr.J, Gilmore, Barry to name a few.


You're not even trying to compare these players fairly
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Old 09-20-2012, 06:03 PM   #45
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by D.J.
Pippen is the best two way player to ever play the game. His dominance with his perimeter D and his ability to make plays, handle the ball, and set up plays is something that has yet to be matched. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see him be the #1 option for more than a year and a half. He put up I think 22/9/6/3/1 in '94. He also had a season of 21/7/7 with Mike.



Ever hear of Jordan, far superior than Pippen as a two way player, as is Lebron as, was Hondo...I swear Pippen must be TOP 10 GOAT, the way these young dudes who never saw him play on here talk about him.
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