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Old 09-20-2012, 07:22 AM   #16
SHAQisGOAT
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Close but Hondo
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Old 09-20-2012, 07:39 AM   #17
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Havlicek was the best player on 4 title teams which were the 68,69,74, and 76 Celtics. He was one of the best defenders at his position annually and a better scorer than Pippen with better longevity. In the early 70's a lot of people felt he was the best all-around player in the league as Havlicek could do just about anything on the court. And for those who like to talk rings well 8>6.
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Old 09-20-2012, 07:50 AM   #18
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Scottie Pippen
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Old 09-20-2012, 07:58 AM   #19
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chains5000
60% of ISH posters never watched Pippen play (forget about Havlicek).

Exactly. And if you asked this question in 2002, everyone would have said Havlicek. Pippen is becoming very overrated by a generation of posters that live on hearsay and youtube highlights.

John Havlicek was a better version of Scottie Pippen before Pippen ever existed. The fact that threads like this exist really piss me off. Hondo is becoming over-looked, as are other stars pre-1990. I'm not meaning to detract from Scottie, but he really only had a short peak, and never dominated offensively to the extent that Havlicek did. Havlicek was seen as one of the best wing defenders ever, and was an NBA ironman in terms of games played, and minutes played. His longevity is impressive as well. As a 36 year old, he averaged 17.7ppg, 4.8rpg, 5.1apg. He and the ageing Celtics took Dr J's 76ers to 7 games, 1 game away from the ECF.

Havlicek won titles in different eras, as the number 2, and as the number 1 in 1974 (don't listen to 87 Lakers - Hondo was clearly the lead dog. Stats back it up with the fact that he led the team in PER, WS, and he was the finals MVP).

Pippen has no individual awards to his name other than an All-Star MVP, and was never a top dog on a championship team - also consider how weak the east was in 1993-94.
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Old 09-20-2012, 08:00 AM   #20
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kews1
Id take Pippen, but as of right now i dont have any stats/facts to back me up

Damn, how can you call yourself a Celtics fan and take Pippen? I swear fans these days are getting stupider.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:28 AM   #21
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raz
Damn, how can you call yourself a Celtics fan and take Pippen? I swear fans these days are getting stupider.

Pippen was a monster c'monson.

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Old 09-20-2012, 09:53 AM   #22
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycelt84
Havlicek was the best player on 4 title teams which were the 68,69,74, and 76 Celtics. He was one of the best defenders at his position annually and a better scorer than Pippen with better longevity. In the early 70's a lot of people felt he was the best all-around player in the league as Havlicek could do just about anything on the court. And for those who like to talk rings well 8>6.

Well the bolded is just flat out wrong. He was the best player on exactly one title team ('69), with one being debatable ('74). Russ was still the best in '68, and Cowens in '76.

But you're right about scoring. Hondo was a significantly better scorer than Pip because his jumper was much more consistent. He could be a go to guy in crunch time when you needed a bucket. Pippen was better defensively and a better rebounder.

Ultimately, they deserve to be pretty close in any GOAT rankings, but I would certainly take Hondo.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:58 AM   #23
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Pippen

I've never seen Havlicek play and I haven't seen Havlicek play against the types of players Pippen faced.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:48 AM   #24
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raz
Exactly. And if you asked this question in 2002, everyone would have said Havlicek. Pippen is becoming very overrated by a generation of posters that live on hearsay and youtube highlights.

John Havlicek was a better version of Scottie Pippen before Pippen ever existed. The fact that threads like this exist really piss me off. Hondo is becoming over-looked, as are other stars pre-1990. I'm not meaning to detract from Scottie, but he really only had a short peak, and never dominated offensively to the extent that Havlicek did. Havlicek was seen as one of the best wing defenders ever, and was an NBA ironman in terms of games played, and minutes played. His longevity is impressive as well. As a 36 year old, he averaged 17.7ppg, 4.8rpg, 5.1apg. He and the ageing Celtics took Dr J's 76ers to 7 games, 1 game away from the ECF.

Havlicek won titles in different eras, as the number 2, and as the number 1 in 1974 (don't listen to 87 Lakers - Hondo was clearly the lead dog. Stats back it up with the fact that he led the team in PER, WS, and he was the finals MVP).

Pippen has no individual awards to his name other than an All-Star MVP, and was never a top dog on a championship team - also consider how weak the east was in 1993-94.

Isn't that a bit extreme? One guy doesn't completely outclass the other (even though I'd go Havlicek without much hesitation), so the conversation shouldn't be that bad.
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Old 09-20-2012, 12:28 PM   #25
SHAQisGOAT
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oolalaa
But you're right about scoring. Hondo was a significantly better scorer than Pip because his jumper was much more consistent. He could be a go to guy in crunch time when you needed a bucket. Pippen was better defensively and a better rebounder.

Ultimately, they deserve to be pretty close in any GOAT rankings, but I would certainly take Hondo.

Pip was better defensively but not by much like some may think, Hondo was also an amazing defensive player. Passing and rebounding Pip is also a bit above and yes Hondo was the better scorer and more clutch.
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Old 09-20-2012, 12:31 PM   #26
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swi7ch
Pippen

I've never seen Havlicek play and I haven't seen Havlicek play against the types of players Pippen faced.

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Old 09-20-2012, 12:36 PM   #27
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chewing
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Old 09-20-2012, 12:47 PM   #28
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

I've never seen John Havlicek play, so I can't comment. What's sad is that most of the posters haven't even seen Hornacek play, let alone Havlicek. LOL @ people not in their 40's commenting on this.
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:20 PM   #29
Raz
 
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpliii
Isn't that a bit extreme? One guy doesn't completely outclass the other (even though I'd go Havlicek without much hesitation), so the conversation shouldn't be that bad.

Yes the conversation is that bad.

It would be like me trying to convince people that Manu Ginobili should be ranked above Clyde Drexler. There is a significant gap.

I'm not talking about transferring each other to different decades, Pippen was extremely athletic and he would wreck havoc in the 60's and 70's.

And to the people saying Pippen was the better rebounder and passer, are you aware that Hondo averaged 9rpg and 7.5apg in the same season to go with his 28.9ppg. This is the list of players to put up stats like that:
Hondo is a beast

He was basically the GOAT wing defender before Pippen, and he set the bench mark for all big wing players.

The over-appreciation for Scottie Pippen is horrible. He had such a short peak, and Havlicek dominated over two decades.
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:31 PM   #30
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raz
Yes the conversation is that bad.

It would be like me trying to convince people that Manu Ginobili should be ranked above Clyde Drexler. There is a significant gap.

I'm not talking about transferring each other to different decades, Pippen was extremely athletic and he would wreck havoc in the 60's and 70's.

And to the people saying Pippen was the better rebounder and passer, are you aware that Hondo averaged 9rpg and 7.5apg in the same season to go with his 28.9ppg. This is the list of players to put up stats like that:
Hondo is a beast

He was basically the GOAT wing defender before Pippen, and he set the bench mark for all big wing players.

The over-appreciation for Scottie Pippen is horrible. He had such a short peak, and Havlicek dominated over two decades.
Let's not exaggerate. Even if you plucked him from the 90's Pippen wouldn't end up wreaking any more havoc than a player like say, Gus Johnson. Pippen doesn't offer any more than Gus aside from passing. He was even considered the best all-around defender at that time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwPtBV4TsdU

And yet a player like Havlicek was still considered better.
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