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Old 03-16-2013, 10:58 AM   #211
La Frescobaldi
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pushxx
Hondo was one of the most versatile athletes ever.

How many guys do you know that got drafted by the NBA and the NFL BOTH?

Hondo was.
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Old 03-16-2013, 04:19 PM   #212
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi
Do you have to be the best player on your team, to be the leader of your team?

Obviously I'm in the minority once again, when I answer my own question,
'nope. you don't.'



Well, you're absolutely right.



BTW, David Robinson is the most athletic tall guy of all-time.
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Old 03-17-2013, 04:35 PM   #213
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
I think 68 is arguable, but I think Hondo was definitely better in Russell's last season.

It may be arguable now, as people focus way too much on offensive box score statistics, but it wasn't really arguable back then.

Even Havlicek himself would tell you that.

Quote:
"It's a damn shame you have to place so much of a load on one person. They keep saying this guy is the key, that guy is the key. There's only one key—him [Russell]—and he's only human, like everybody else."
- John Havlicek, 1969

Also consider that 1969 was the year Russell went down with a knee injury and the Celtics promptly went on a 5 game losing streak - the longest since 1950 - in his absence.


Quote:
The Boston Celtics tied the score on Bill Russell's last minute heroics in regulation time and charged to a 122-117 overtime victory over the Philadelphia 76ers yesterday in snapping their longest losing streak in two decades.

Russell, sidelined a week with knee injury and exhaustion, came off the bench in the first quarter to rally the Celtics from a 10-point deficit and end a five-game losing streak.

Some more quotes from the time

Quote:
Russell, who has independently destroyed the dreams of many Laker teams in past championships, is again the key. For years the lithe giant has dominated a team with so much talent that it bulldozed the opposition. Now he is suddenly the object of much sentiment. Supposedly a tired old man near the end of his trail, who has known defeat like other mortals, he has managed to bring his own new team of hustlers and scramblers and even castoffs to the brink of one final great success. "The Celtics are a way of life with me," he says, thrusting his goateed chin forward to enforce the point. He has been the way of life for the Celtics as well.

Quote:
As the team captain, Havlicek is officially Russell's deputy. He alone stands with Russell, a sidekick, Tonto to his Kemo Sabay, spiriting the offense as Russell does the defense, transmitting Russellian rebuttals and suggestions to the officials.

Quote:
"I remember they were calling us old when I came in, and that was six years ago," Havlicek had said. "We were fighting that then." Havlicek has now played on more championship Celtic teams than Bill Sharman did, and remember, Sharman's retirement was going to be the first crack in the dynasty. Everybody said so. Now they're all gone but Russell. He has outlasted every player in the league who was there when he came in. Just consider the Celtics who played with him, won their championships and have gone: Cousy, Heinsohn, Frank Ramsey, K. C. Jones, Jim Loscutoff, Andy Phillip, Arnie Risen, Jack Nichols, Gene Conley, Gary Phillips, Carl Braun, Clyde Lovellette, Jack McCarthy, Willie Naulls and Auerbach, too, of course, and Buddy LeRoux, the trainer. The owner, Walter Brown, died, and the owner after him, Lou Pieri. The team was sold and still has gone on, so that now Howell and Embry have their championships with Russell, too.

When asked how the Celtics managed to beat the 76ers, despite being out-rebounded and out-shot, 76ers’ Coach Jack Ramsey had the answer in two words — Bill Russell. Ramsay gave all the credit to Russell, the player-coach of the Celtics. “In my opinion, he was the difference. He’s always the difference when we play Boston.”

Quote:
Russell is a great defensive player—he’s the greatest defensive center who ever lived
- Knicks Coach Red Holzman

Quote:
Boston, an aging team troubled by injuries and the severe travel conditions of the NBA schedule, appears revitalized for the playoffs, which normally offer at least a day’s rest between games. As usual, center Bill Russell, their player-coach, holds the key to Boston’s success, and he dominated the Philadelphia series.

Quote:
Like vintage wine, the Boston Celtics improve with age.

Spurred by 35-year-old player-coach Bill Russell, the Celtics, seeking their 11th National Basketball Association playoff championship in 13 years, took another step towards attaining that goal Sunday afternoon by beating the Knicks 108-100.

Quote:
Ageless Bill Russell gave no hint of when he would call it quits after leading the Boston Celtics to their 11th NBA title Monday night.


Quote:
BOSTON — (AP) — The Boston Celtics, led by player-coach Bill Russell threw up a tight early defense and shackled ice-cold New York in the first half enroute to a 112-97 victory over the Knicks and a 2-0 lead in their Eastern Division final series in the National Basketball Association playoffs.

Russell, who has led the Celtics to 10 championships in 12 years,was the dominating factor as he virtually intimidated the New York sharpshooters.

Quote:
Boston’s mighty defense, led by Player-Coach Bill Russell, was the difference as the Celtics edged the Knicks 97-96 Sunday before a crowd of 13,506 and a national television audience.

Quote:
Quote:
John Havlicek, the Celtics’ leading scorer in the seven-game series, said, “This is the toughest series I’ve ever been in. And I savor this win above all the others. Russ should be given all the credit.


Quote:
“You couldn't begin to count the ways we missed[him]. People think about him in terms of defense and rebounding, but he had been the key to our offense. He made the best pass more than anyone I have every played with. That mattered to people like Nelson, Howell, Siegfried, Sanders, and myself. None of us were one on one players...Russell made us better offensive players. His ability as a passer, pick-setter, and general surmiser of offense has always been overlooked.”
- John Havlicek

Quote:
And that is the way it is. Some Celtics play alongside Russell, some sit on the bench, some retire and come back to shake hands. The spokes change. Each supporting star leaves, as Sam Jones will now and the soothsayers forecast doom. The wheel keeps rolling.

For all of Hondo's offensive talent, the Celtic's were still below average offensively both years. It wasn't Hondo's offense that made them great, it was Russell's defense. Looking at the stats, it should be fairly obvious that Russell's defense was winning them more games than Havlicek's offense.

1968

ORtg
Code:
1. Los Angeles 102.8 2. Cincinnati 101.9 3. Philadelphia 99.1 4. St. Louis 98.8 5. New York 98.6 6. Detroit 97.0 7. Baltimore 96.2 8. Boston 95.8 9. Seattle 95.5 10. San Francisco 93.7 10. Chicago 93.7 12. San Diego 91.3

DRtg
Code:
1. Philadelphia 92.1 2. Boston 92.4 3. San Francisco 94.2 4. St. Louis 96.4 5. Baltimore 96.5 6. New York 97.0 7. Chicago 97.1 8. Los Angeles 98.1 9. San Diego 98.3 10. Detroit 98.7 11. Seattle 100.6 12. Cincinnati 102.7


1969

ORtg
Code:
1. Cincinnati 100.4 2. Los Angeles 99.0 3. New York 98.4 4. Philadelphia 98.2 5. Atlanta 97.6 6. Detroit 97.3 7. Baltimore 94.8 8. Seattle 94.3 9. Phoenix 93.1 9. Boston 93.1 9. Milwaukee 93.1 12. San Diego 92.0 13. San Francisco 91.2 14. Chicago 91.0

DRtg
Code:
1. Boston 88.4 2. Baltimore 91.3 3. San Diego 92.2 4. San Francisco 92.5 5. Chicago 93.0 6. New York 93.3 7. Philadelphia 94.0 8. Los Angeles 95.4 9. Atlanta 95.6 10. Milwaukee 97.5 11. Seattle 98.3 12. Detroit 100.0 13. Phoenix 100.5 14. Cincinnati 101.4

Now Hondo was a great defender, so I'm not saying that he didn't have a hand it that, but Russell was certainly the biggest contributor.
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Old 03-17-2013, 04:43 PM   #214
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
It may be arguable now, as people focus way too much on offensive box score statistics, but it wasn't really arguable back then.

Even Havlicek himself would tell you that.



There's a level of reverence for Russell that will transcend play on the court. In 1968 I think you're probably right...but I think Russell was noticeably a lesser player and I don't think his defense was anywhere near what it once was...even what it was the year prior.
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Old 03-17-2013, 04:46 PM   #215
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi
I know what you mean about majority opinions. I can think of several presidents I haven't cared for... who were elected by majority opinion. but there's lots of examples in the NBA too:

* Yao Ming was selected as an All Star without even playing, like, any games.
* People think Wade won a ring without any help, the way Nowitzki did.
* People think Jordan won a ring without any help, the way DJ or Rick Barry did.

you know? We could do this all day!

* People think Kobe Bryant was never the best player in the NBA.
* People think Javale McGee is the most athletic tall guy of all time.
* People think Oscar Robertson was better than Magic Johnson.
* People think the referees never shave points even after a referee was incarcerated for shaving points..... and they apparently thought it was just a coincidence that after that there were enormous rules changes about speaking to referees so no hint of scandal would be allowed.
* People think Carmelo Anthony is a better offensive player than KB or Durant ever were.

People who weren't even born yet and never saw a game from the '83 season... think Julius Erving was the best player on the Sixers ring team. Even never heard of "FO FO FO"

I agree with the majority opinion not always being right, but this was a very large majority opinion.

Also, the bolded definitely were not/ are not majority opinions, and all star voting has more to do with popularity than it does people picking the players they actually think are the best.

Quote:

Now that one is interesting... possibly even worth a thread.

Do you have to be the best player on your team, to be the leader of your team?

Obviously I'm in the minority once again, when I answer my own question,
'nope. you don't.'

Agreed

Last edited by DatAsh : 03-17-2013 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 03-17-2013, 05:10 PM   #216
DatAsh
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
There's a level of reverence for Russell that will transcend play on the court. In 1968 I think you're probably right...but I think Russell was noticeably a lesser player and I don't think his defense was anywhere near what it once was...even what it was the year prior.

Based on what though? The stats, as well as the opinions of players and coaches at the time, strongly disagree with that. What evidence do you have that's forcing you to ignore all that and come to a different conclusion? The box score stats?

Part of that reverence comes from the older generation who actually saw him play - or played with or against him - and knew that his impact really did transcend his stats.

Also, if you doubt Russell's defensive impact in 1969, consider the fact that the Celtics' DRtg dropped 10 absolute points, 7.4 relative points, and they lost 18.5 defensive win shares when he left.

Code:
Year DRtg Place Diff From Mean Diff from 2nd DWS SRS ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1969 88.4 1/14 -6.8 -2.8 40.6 +5.35 1970 98.5 7/16 +0.6 +2.3 22.1 -1.59

Most of those quotes I posted about other players - including Hondo himself - and coaches recognizing Russell as the Celtic's best player were from 1969.
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