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Old 09-23-2012, 01:25 AM   #196
Da_Realist
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Calabis is right. Worthy was pretty good against Pippen despite the ankle. He was good against Jordan, too, but Jordan didn't guard him as much. I just saw the first 2 and a half games the last couple of days. Even before this topic veered toward this way, I was thinking about how good Worthy was in the 91 Finals and how much I forgot about it. At least for the first 2 and a half games... I plan on watching the rest of Game 3 tonight after everyone goes to bed.


Watched Game 3...and into Game 4...

Off topic but just wanted to say this. That doubling, trapping defense the Bulls put on the Lakers was a g**damn thing of beauty. It looked like the Bulls had 8 players out on the court. Pippen, Jordan and Grant were ridiculous. They all would double somebody on one side of the court and then race back to their man to contest whenever the ball swung around. On any one possession, all three would double and race back to their own man at some point. It looked like a dance. And they did it ALL GAME LONG. Levingston deserves a mention here too cause he moved his feet when he got off the bench. They just wore the Lakers down.

I laugh at those that don't think the Bulls played historical level defense in the first 3-peat. They wore Magic down and forced other players out of their comfort zone to pick up the slack. Perkins is used to posting up and shooting. The Bulls made him have to think like a point forward cause traps were coming at him so hard. Byron Scott is used to spotting up but he had to come out and handle the ball when Magic was forced to give it up. The Bulls energy wore them down physically (look at the rebounding disparity) but that trapping defense wore the Lakers down mentally.

Look at this defense... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_O5Fr62OUw#t=2m09s

Last edited by Da_Realist : 09-23-2012 at 01:32 AM.
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Old 09-23-2012, 01:36 AM   #197
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by Da_Realist
Watched Game 3...and into Game 4...

Off topic but just wanted to say this. That doubling, trapping defense the Bulls put on the Lakers was a g**damn thing of beauty. It looked like the Bulls had 8 players out on the court. Pippen, Jordan and Grant were ridiculous. They all would double somebody on one side of the court and then race back to their man to contest whenever the ball swung around. On any one possession, all three would double and race back to their own man at some point. It looked like a dance. And they did it ALL GAME LONG. Levingston deserves a mention here too cause he moved his feet when he got off the bench. They just wore the Lakers down.

I laugh at those that don't think the Bulls played historical level defense in the first 3-peat. They wore Magic down and forced other players out of their comfort zone to pick up the slack. Perkins is used to posting up and shooting. The Bulls made him have to think like a point forward cause traps were coming at him so hard. Byron Scott is used to spotting up but he had to come out and handle the ball when Magic was forced to give it up. The Bulls energy wore them down physically (look at the rebounding disparity) but that trapping defense wore the Lakers down mentally.
Yep. Countless times, the Lakers bigs found themselves taking the ball up the court and attempting to initiate a semblance of an offense. Even worse with less than ten seconds on the shot clock. And once Magic gave the ball up (especially in game two) he rarely got it back.
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Old 09-23-2012, 01:43 AM   #198
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Yep. Countless times, the Lakers bigs found themselves taking the ball up the court and attempting to initiate a semblance of an offense. Even worse with less than ten seconds on the shot clock. And once Magic gave the ball up (especially in game two) he rarely got it back.

The beauty of having guys like Jordan, Pippen and Grant was that they were interchangeable. Young, long, quick, athletic, can defend multiple positions, equally good defensively in full court and half court...and you can change their defensive assignments based on the needs of the team at that particular time. The Dobermans were the right nickname for them.

Just had to say that cause it was bubbling in my head and didn't know where else to put it so I posted it here. lol
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Old 09-23-2012, 02:57 AM   #199
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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I know… I know…. this is unrelated but I'ma still say it as well.

Bron should watch how Magic played with his back turned to his defender. I think more players should play back with their backs turned on defenders, not sure why they don't. Bron would be even deadlier and unstoppable if he played this way. He'd be an entirely different beast if he emulated how Magic played. Speaking of Magic and Bron, Magic is 'quicker' than Bron. There's a difference between being 'faster' and 'quicker'. Bron is faster, but Magic is quicker.

Ok… sorry.
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:57 PM   #200
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?




I'll give it to John Havlicek. Hondo won an NBA Finals MVP in 1974. He also has more All NBA First, and Second team selections than Pippen.

Pippen's numbers actually went down in the Chicago Bulls 2nd 3 peat while Hondo remained a consistent top performer for the Boston Celtics.

John Havlicek

8ื NBA champion (1963–1966, 1968–1969, 1974, 1976)
NBA Finals MVP (1974)
13ื NBA All-Star (1966–1978)
4ื All-NBA First Team (1971–1974)
7ื All-NBA Second Team (1964, 1966, 1968–1970, 1975–1976)
5ื NBA All-Defensive First Team (1972–1976)
3ื NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1969–1971)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1963)

Scottie Pippen


6ื NBA champion (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
7ื NBA All-Star (1990, 1992–1997)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (1994)
3ื All-NBA First Team (1994–1996)
2ื All-NBA Second Team (1992, 1997)
2ื All-NBA Third Team (1993, 1998)
8ื NBA All-Defensive First Team (1992–1999)
2ื NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1991, 200
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:10 PM   #201
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Havlicek had crazy legs and crazy lungs. He would just start running about 5 minutes in to a game, and he'd stop running ........ at half time. Then after like 2 minutes in the 3rd ......... he was running. I mean he would run, like a marathon runner just never, ever stopped. He would literally run guys into the ground - great athletes like Julius Erving, Earl Monroe, Gail Goodrich - they just could not keep up with Big John. He outran them all and sent them to the bench out of gas. Truth.

He played the whole court more than any other player I can think of. He'd have insane plays out in the flats on the far side of mid-court.... a couple times a game. True greatness, that's all I can say about Havlicek. True greatness.

Clutch? This is one of the game thrillers that will thrill me my whole life.



Right after that the Suns called a timeout they didn't have and took a technical foul but got 1 second on the clock......... right after that, some guy ran out of the stands and freaking tackled the freaking ref!! lol
What a game that was TRIPLE OT!!

Hondo was the Celtics' best player from 1968 until '74 and maybe '75. Of course keeping in mind he did suffer some serious injuries in through there.

He held that team together when one of the all-time-greatest-players-who-ever-lived Sammy Jones retired in '69... and then the double dose killer on top of that. Bill Russell quit without notice - left the Celtics high and dry without a coach AND without a center.

Red Auerbach had just used all his chips and all his maneuvers and tricky machinations getting JoJo White as a kind of a wishful dream of replacing Sam. But the Celtics organization was caught flat footed when their coach just walked off. Celtics were blown up just like the 98 Bulls.

Havlicek wasn't just glue, he WAS the Celtics. I saw somebody say Cowens was better than Hondo well I can't agree.
Dave was great Hondo was legendary
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:18 PM   #202
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Pippen

Best perimeter defender of all time.. One of the best all around player that ever play the game of basketball.. Absolutely no weakness at all..



Did you even watch Pippen play? Couldn't shoot that well, mentally weak, and not as good a on the ball defender as people say he was. He was the best perimeter team defender. But anyone who watched him defender good scorers on the perimeter would agree with me. He was great at disrupting pg's get their teams into their offenses. But scorers gave him problems.
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:36 PM   #203
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi

Hondo was the Celtics' best player from 1968 until '74 and maybe '75. Of course keeping in mind he did suffer some serious injuries in through there.


Russell was clearly still the Celtic's best player in 68' and 69', though Hondo was the better player in the finals.
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:40 PM   #204
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Russell was clearly still the Celtic's best player in 68' and 69', though Hondo was the better player in the finals.
no. can't agree.
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:44 PM   #205
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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no. can't agree.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but that doesn't jive with the majority opinion at the time.
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:43 PM   #206
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Totally forgot about this thread.
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:51 PM   #207
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Originally Posted by DatAsh
Russell was clearly still the Celtic's best player in 68' and 69', though Hondo was the better player in the finals.



I think 68 is arguable, but I think Hondo was definitely better in Russell's last season.
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Old 03-16-2013, 04:52 AM   #208
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Very Hard To Say. I Did Not Watch Hondo Play So I Canดt Really Say Who Was Better.
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Old 03-16-2013, 08:37 AM   #209
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

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Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but that doesn't jive with the majority opinion at the time.

I know what you mean about majority opinions. I can think of several presidents I haven't cared for... who were elected by majority opinion. but there's lots of examples in the NBA too:

* Yao Ming was selected as an All Star without even playing, like, any games.
* People think Wade won a ring without any help, the way Nowitzki did.
* People think Jordan won a ring without any help, the way DJ or Rick Barry did.

you know? We could do this all day!

* People think Kobe Bryant was never the best player in the NBA.
* People think Javale McGee is the most athletic tall guy of all time.
* People think Oscar Robertson was better than Magic Johnson.
* People think the referees never shave points even after a referee was incarcerated for shaving points..... and they apparently thought it was just a coincidence that after that there were enormous rules changes about speaking to referees so no hint of scandal would be allowed.
* People think Carmelo Anthony is a better offensive player than KB or Durant ever were.

People who weren't even born yet and never saw a game from the '83 season... think Julius Erving was the best player on the Sixers ring team. Even never heard of "FO FO FO"

Now that one is interesting... possibly even worth a thread.

Do you have to be the best player on your team, to be the leader of your team?

Obviously I'm in the minority once again, when I answer my own question,
'nope. you don't.'

Last edited by La Frescobaldi : 03-16-2013 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 03-16-2013, 09:00 AM   #210
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Default Re: Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Hondo was one of the most versatile athletes ever.
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