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Old 03-17-2013, 06:49 AM   #1
RobertdeMeijer
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Default Larry Bird won the most Defensive Win Shares in the league four times?

When I think of Larry Bird's defense, I think of weak side steals, but nothing more than that being spectacular. I've never treated his three All-Defense (2nd) teams with much allowance.
But browsing at his stats here, http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../birdla01.html, I noticed how he led the league in Defensive Win Shares four times. What gives?

Now, I've never known the calculation for individual Defensive Rating (it's in that book by Dean Oliver, Basketball by Numbers, but I've never seen the formula leaked online), which is a part of Defensive Win Shares.

I was wondering how this is possible. Could it be that the formula gives extra defensive credit for getting steals, blocks and (defensive) rebounds, more than Parish/McHale/Johnson in 1986 for example, which combined with his team's league-best Defensive Rating would put him on top? (I've always noticed how defensive specialists without defensive stats like Chuck Hayes and Joe Dumars didn't have great Defensive Ratings). Or was he really responsible for a lot of missed shots? (directly or indirectly)

What do you guys think?
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:08 AM   #2
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Default Re: Larry Bird won the most Defensive Win Shares in the league four times?

Individual defensive rating is how much the team concedes with a player on the court - essentially a team stat but there are some cases where one player makes an unbelievable difference.

Steals are a individual stat that probably translates well to win shares. I think Bird probably benefited statistically for having a free role in one of the better defensive teams we've seen.
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:14 AM   #3
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Default Re: Larry Bird won the most Defensive Win Shares in the league four times?

He was not a very good individual defender, albeit better than given credit for. But he was an excellent team (and help) defender, basically due to his basketball IQ. Everything that happened on the court was in slow-motion for him (same with Magic on offense). It was easy for Bird to steal balls and help out others on defense because he had seen the play before it actually happened.
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Old 03-17-2013, 01:59 PM   #4
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Default Re: Larry Bird won the most Defensive Win Shares in the league four times?

The more I look at the stats, the more it seems that individual Defensive Rating is highly determined by (defensive) rebounds. Meh.
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Old 03-17-2013, 02:06 PM   #5
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Default Re: Larry Bird won the most Defensive Win Shares in the league four times?

http://basketballjournalist.blogspot...nsive-win.html

1980-1985 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Jack Sikma (24.0) / Robert Parish (23.4)
F - Larry Bird (28.2) / Greg Ballard (21.6)
F - Julius Erving (22.4) / Buck Williams (20.1)
G - Sidney Moncrief (19.1) / Michael Ray Richardson (18.0)
G - Maurice Cheeks (18.6) / Dennis Johnson (18.0)
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Old 03-17-2013, 02:39 PM   #6
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Default Re: Larry Bird won the most Defensive Win Shares in the league four times?

Some of the top 10 Defensive Win Share leaders this season:

Paul George (leads the league in D Win Shares)
David West
Kevin Durant

Some of the top 10 Defensive Win Share NON-leaders this season:

Lebron James
Serge Ibaka
Tyson Chandler
Avery Bradely
Thabo Sefolosha
and so on...

Hope that answers your question...

Last edited by pauk : 03-17-2013 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 03-17-2013, 02:42 PM   #7
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Default Re: Larry Bird won the most Defensive Win Shares in the league four times?

Defensive rebounds are pretty big part of this.
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Old 03-17-2013, 02:58 PM   #8
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Default Re: Larry Bird won the most Defensive Win Shares in the league four times?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauk
Some of the top 10 Defensive Win Share leaders this season:

David West
Kevin Durant

Some of the top 10 Defensive Win Share NON-leaders this season:


Serge Ibaka
Tyson Chandler
Avery Bradely
Thabo Sefolosha
and so on...

Hope that answers your question...

Yea.
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Old 03-17-2013, 04:15 PM   #9
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Default Re: Larry Bird won the most Defensive Win Shares in the league four times?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauk
Some of the top 10 Defensive Win Share leaders this season:

Paul George (leads the league in D Win Shares)
David West
Kevin Durant

Some of the top 10 Defensive Win Share NON-leaders this season:

Lebron James
Serge Ibaka
Tyson Chandler
Avery Bradely
Thabo Sefolosha
and so on...

Hope that answers your question...

Indeed, rather odd. Paul George also has a lot of defensive rebounds.
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Old 03-17-2013, 04:25 PM   #10
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Default Re: Larry Bird won the most Defensive Win Shares in the league four times?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauk
Some of the top 10 Defensive Win Share leaders this season:

Paul George (leads the league in D Win Shares)
David West
Kevin Durant

Some of the top 10 Defensive Win Share NON-leaders this season:

Lebron James
Serge Ibaka
Tyson Chandler
Avery Bradely
Thabo Sefolosha
and so on...

Hope that answers your question...


Serge Ibaka is not a very good defender.
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