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Old 08-28-2012, 10:20 PM   #16
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Default Re: Why do people always think if an older player played today they would be WAY better?

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Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
Why not? What's so different about what he's doing vs what Lebron or Kobe does?

http://youtu.be/NseHzlD9rU0


LeBron is a lot bigger for starters, and Kobe clearly has a much more advanced handle and one on one moves. You put Baylor in a half court game with all these 6"8 to 6"10 SFs guarding him and how do you honestly think he'd do?

Centers have gotten much worse, but I feel wing players are much better.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:25 PM   #17
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Default Re: Why do people always think if an older player played today they would be WAY better?

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Originally Posted by abuC
LeBron is a lot bigger for starters, and Kobe clearly has a much more advanced handle and one on one moves. You put Baylor in a half court game with all these 6"8 to 6"10 SFs guarding him and how do you honestly think he'd do?

Centers have gotten much worse, but I feel wing players are much better.
lol, how many 6-8 to 6-10 SF's are there in the NBA? 1? (Durant, 6-9). The rest have inflated list info and are no different in height than the guys he played in the 60s. Baylor was the same size as MWP, except he had unguardable fluidity and creativity offensively. Baylor is a blend of the fluidity of Kobe mixed with the power of Lebron. He's in between the two. U think a player built like that wouldn't put up numbers than you don't know basketball.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:31 PM   #18
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Default Re: Why do people always think if an older player played today they would be WAY better?

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Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
lol, how many 6-8 to 6-10 SF's are there in the NBA? 1? (Durant, 6-9). The rest have inflated list info and are no different in height than the guys he played in the 60s. Baylor was the same size as MWP, except he had unguardable fluidity and creativity offensively. Baylor is a blend of the fluidity of Kobe mixed with the power of Lebron. He's in between the two. U think a player built like that wouldn't put up numbers than you don't know basketball.

Inflated list info because they are listed with their shoes on, really? Also, he and Artest are not the same size, Ron's playing weight is 25-35lbs heavier than Baylor. I get that you romanticize these guys when you're making the vids, but I don't know how you can sit there and watch all that footage of Baylor and see that primitive handle and come to the conclusion he's a mix of Kobe and LeBron.

Just show me 1 perimeter guy today that is scoring 25+ppg with a game that resembles Baylors, and I mean with a really weak off-hand.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:38 PM   #19
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Default Re: Why do people always think if an older player played today they would be WAY better?

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Originally Posted by abuC
Inflated list info because they are listed with their shoes on, really? Also, he and Artest are not the same size, Ron's playing weight is 25-35lbs heavier than Baylor. I get that you romanticize these guys when you're making the vids, but I don't know how you can sit there and watch all that footage of Baylor and see that primitive handle and come to the conclusion he's a mix of Kobe and LeBron.
Educate yourself

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/

Draftexpress:

Quote:
Something you might notice is that up until sometime in the last 10-12 years, players were only measured without shoes at the main pre-draft camp. Players and various people who worked for teams had been complaining for years about barefoot measurements. Larry Johnson, the #1 overall pick in 1991 expressed his thoughts on the measurements after he came in an inch and a half below his listed height of 6’7”. "Ain't that pitiful?" Johnson said. "You don't go out there with your shoes off. Ain't that right?"

In this case, Larry Johnson being a 6’5 ” power forward didn’t hurt his stock, because he was in a weaker draft, but many times measurements can really help or hurt a player’s position in the draft. Jerry Krause used the same logic in 1992, saying "I've never seen a young man yet play basketball in his stocking feet." That was after power forward Byron Houston, who was listed 6’7” in college measured 6’4”.

However, that is clearly flawed logic, because with the “in shoes” measurements, players can show up with shoes much larger than the ones they actually play in in games. An example of this is 6’10 ” Spencer Hawes, who showed up at the 2007 pre-draft camp with shoes that made him 7’0 ”.

A human’s height does not include the addition of shoes, so it’s misleading when a player chooses to be listed at their in shoes height. The NBA has also done a poor job listing players consistently across the board. Many players are listed at their height in shoes, but some are listed at their barefoot height

And also, why is Dwight Howard gifted a 6-11 on NBA.com but only 6-10.25 in shoes (which may be from thicker shoes than he even plays in to begin with due to what is stated above). Why is Kevin Love gifted a 6-10 despite only being 6-7.75... is he wearing 2.25" shoes like a spice girl? C'mon man, there's no such thing as a consistent listing of players "in shoes" there never has been. Players just list whatever they want to list, and in this era players exaggerate a heck of a lot more than they did before the NBA became such a successful money machine. Players gotta keep their stocks high. But biologically players today aren't different than players then.

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Old 08-28-2012, 10:50 PM   #20
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Default Re: Why do people always think if an older player played today they would be WAY better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
Educate yourself

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/

Draftexpress:



And also, why is Dwight Howard gifted a 6-11 on NBA.com but only 6-10.25 in shoes (which may be from thicker shoes than he even plays in to begin with due to what is stated above). Why is Kevin Love gifted a 6-10 despite only being 6-7.75... is he wearing 2.25" shoes like a spice girl? C'mon man, there's no such thing as a consistent listing of players "in shoes" there never has been. Players just list whatever they want to list, and in this era players exaggerate a heck of a lot more than they did before the NBA became such a successful money machine. Players gotta keep their stocks high. But biologically players today aren't different than players then.


Shoes add inches to height, it's a variable, why does it bother you so much? Also, Dwight grew an inch after being drafted which is why he's listed at 6"11.

That really doesn't address how Baylor is supposed to score in todays league, I asked you to show me 1 perimeter player today that has put up 25+ppg with a crude handle like Baylors. I never said he'd be a scrub, I just said he wouldn't put up numbers like he did, perimeter play has advanced.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:52 PM   #21
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Default Re: Why do people always think if an older player played today they would be WAY better?

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Originally Posted by abuC
Shoes add inches to height, it's a variable, why does it bother you so much? Also, Dwight grew an inch after being drafted which is why he's listed at 6"11.

That really doesn't address how Baylor is supposed to score in todays league, I asked you to show me 1 perimeter player today that has put up 25+ppg with a crude handle like Baylors. I never said he'd be a scrub, I just said he wouldn't put up numbers like he did, perimeter play has advanced.
U missing the point bro? U tried to assert players today are so much bigger than ones of his time. I'm pointing out to you that your wrong. P.S. Baylors handle isn't "crude"

Oh and MWP = 25ppg in '05. Nothing more needs said.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:57 PM   #22
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Default Re: Why do people always think if an older player played today they would be WAY better?

Baylor had crude ball handling skills? Some people shouldn't be allowed to speak on things they have no clue about
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:58 PM   #23
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Default Re: Why do people always think if an older player played today they would be WAY better?

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Originally Posted by abuC
Shoes add inches to height, it's a variable, why does it bother you so much? Also, Dwight grew an inch after being drafted which is why he's listed at 6"11.

That really doesn't address how Baylor is supposed to score in todays league, I asked you to show me 1 perimeter player today that has put up 25+ppg with a crude handle like Baylors. I never said he'd be a scrub, I just said he wouldn't put up numbers like he did, perimeter play has advanced.
Entirely baseless, and not true at all

Andre Iguadala would not go out of his way to say that Bill Russell (in his 70's) was taller than Dwight Howard if Dwight had grown an inch. Howard was listed 6-11 immediately upon being selected, there was no gap between the draft and his 6-11 list height on NBA.com. He was listed 6-11 because that's what he wanted to be listed.
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:01 PM   #24
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Default Re: Why do people always think if an older player played today they would be WAY better?

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Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
U missing the point bro? U tried to assert players today are so much bigger than ones of his time. I'm pointing out to you that your wrong. P.S. Baylors handle isn't "crude"

Oh and MWP = 25ppg in '05. Nothing more needs said.


He was 6"5, even if you add an inch and change for sneakers he's roughly the size of Andre Iguodala (SF), someone who isn't a prolific scorer and can't always get his own shot off. And his ball handling was crude when you're trying to draw a comparison to LeBron and Kobe, a mix of Kobe and LeBron would be the best player in the league by the way.



Really, Ron played 7 games that year, you know for the whole Palace thing, but apparently that didn't happen 50 years ago so you didn't know that.
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:06 PM   #25
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Default Re: Why do people always think if an older player played today they would be WAY better?

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Originally Posted by abuC
He was 6"5, even if you add an inch and change for sneakers he's roughly the size of Andre Iguodala (SF), someone who isn't a prolific scorer and can't always get his own shot off. And his ball handling was crude when you're trying to draw a comparison to LeBron and Kobe.


Really, Ron played 7 games that year, you know for the whole Palace thing, but apparently that didn't happen 50 years ago so you didn't know that.
My mistake on the MWP thing I didn't see he played only 7 games

But um.... Baylor is roughly the same height as Charles Barkley (PF), MJ (SG / SF), and Kobe (SG). and he's 1 inch taller than Wade (SG), and 6 inches taller than Iverson (PG) etc etc etc

6-5 players can flat out dominate offensively. Please, this discussion is ridiculous. Because he's 6-5 w/o shoes (MJ/Barkley/Kobe) he couldn't score today.
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:06 PM   #26
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Default Re: Why do people always think if an older player played today they would be WAY better?

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Entirely baseless, and not true at all

Andre Iguadala would not go out of his way to say that Bill Russell (in his 70's) was taller than Dwight Howard if Dwight had grown an inch. Howard was listed 6-11 immediately upon being selected, there was no gap between the draft and his 6-11 list height on NBA.com. He was listed 6-11 because that's what he wanted to be listed.



Quote:
The Magic caught some heat for taking Howard over Emeka Okafor. But while Okafor has topped out at just under 6-10, Howard has grown an inch since the draft, arriving for training camp at right around 7-feet. "From what we understand, his growth plates still haven't closed, and there's continued growth to be expected," said coach Johnny Davis.

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2004...r-emeka-okafor

An 18 year old kid growing, how shocking.

Last edited by abuC : 08-28-2012 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:07 PM   #27
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Default Re: Why do people always think if an older player played today they would be WAY better?

"He was one of the most spectacular shooters the game has ever known", Baylor's longtime teammate Jerry West told HOOP magazine in 1992. "I hear people talking about forwards today and I haven't seen many that can compare with him."

Bill Sharman played against Baylor and coached him in his final years with the Lakers. "I say without reservation that Elgin Baylor is the greatest cornerman who ever played pro basketball", he told the Los Angeles Times at Baylor's retirement in 1971.

Tommy Hawkins, Baylor's teammate for six seasons and opponent for four (and later a basketball broadcaster) declared to the San Francisco Examiner that "pound for pound, no one was ever as great as Elgin Baylor." "Elgin certainly didn't jump as high as Michael Jordan", Hawkins told the San Francisco Examiner. "But he had the greatest variety of shots of anyone. He would take it in and hang and shoot from all these angles. Put spin on the ball. Elgin had incredible strength. He could post up Bill Russell. He could pass like Magic [Johnson] and dribble with the best guards in the league."
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:08 PM   #28
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Default Re: Why do people always think if an older player played today they would be WAY better?

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Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
My mistake on the MWP thing I didn't see he played only 7 games

But um.... Baylor is roughly the same height as Charles Barkley (PF), MJ (SG / SF), and Kobe (SG). and he's 1 inch taller than Wade (SG), and 6 inches taller than Iverson (PG) etc etc etc

6-5 players can flat out dominate offensively. Please, this discussion is ridiculous. Because he's 6-5 w/o shoes (MJ/Barkley/Kobe) he couldn't score today.


Barkley was 270-280lbs, he's 1 of a kind.


And I don't understand why you keep listing guys who have more advanced one on one moves, the damn eye test look at Wade/Kobe/MJ and how they handle the ball in isolation, then go back and look at Baylor. It's just not the same, he was a small forward, you're talking about guys who are the same height as him that are shooting guards and are more fluid with better handles.
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:12 PM   #29
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Default Re: Why do people always think if an older player played today they would be WAY better?

Players today are way way better than player of the past.. Old people like jlauber is still living in the past.. He and some of the older poster here can accept the fact that basketball back then was weak.. Players of the 60's will not even make the league or if ever they make it, they will become scrub at best..
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:15 PM   #30
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Default Re: Why do people always think if an older player played today they would be WAY better?

My bad - the NY daily news says Dwight went from 6-9 to 7 feet tall now

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