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Old 01-25-2007, 07:01 AM   #31
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Did I miss something about Marion being a superstar? If that's the case, the league has at least 30 superstars.

Nash is slowly passing Kobe as the most talked about player in the league.
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Old 01-25-2007, 09:02 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FabCasablancas
ummm, players can improve you know

Yes.. they can.. but that's not what happened.. Amare and Marion were superstars before Nash even got there..

The MAvs only have one all-star in Dallas.. the Suns have 3 superstars.. not just all-stars...

So somehow Nash is MVP for playing with 2 other all-stars and Dirk has no all-stars around him and he isn't MVP?

It makes ZERO sense. Dirk even went farther than Nash in the playoffs..
I'm not going to get into an argument (though feel free to disagree, that's what the beard is about), but I'm going to make two comments about your post:

1) I believe Nash has improved significantly since he left Dallas, and it's not just a product of the system he's playing in that makes him look better. His decision making is better, he's more of a leader, he uses his own shot more as a weapon, he's improved his physicality, etc.

2) The Suns do have more All-Stars, true, but to me the Mavericks are still the deeper team. It is hard to compare the two rosters by simply saying "Oh Nash has 2 all-stars and Dirk has none" because the balance is different. The Suns are top heavy with a 6 or 7 man core group of talented guys, while the Mavs have more talent 1 through 12 averaged out. Basically the talent level of the two teams is a wash. Maybe this is just my opinion, who knows.
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Old 01-25-2007, 09:55 AM   #33
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Quote:
2. Nash looks so good because of GMing.. horrible GMing and great GMing

Nash's incredibly talented team makes him look better than he is.. that's a product of GMing.. not Nash being an MVP.

You are, quite frankly, retarded. I'm not even going to argue your points because they're more infested with retardedness than a fat kid with downs.

Quote:
Question for the older crowd: Did anyone ever see this potential in Nash?

Back in college, Nash was being talked about like the next Stockton. He pretty much carried a tiny ass school to 2 20+win seasons and NCAA appearances. Their stats were pretty similar too. Nash was drafted 15th, Stockton was drafted 16th.

Back in the Phoenix days with Kidd, they would even play Kidd & Nash at the same time often just to get him on the floor. The guy was one of those "just needs a chance" players. Then he got traded to Dallas, and he got his chance in the lockout year. Like a lot of guys, he sucked ass that year and wasn't even a consistent starter the next season. Then the next season he started showing what he could do, but by then Nelson had his offensive system in place, and Nash was never gonna get to run riot there.

Even in that system, Nash always showed the hints. Great shooting, great ballhandling, crazy shots in the lane, insane passes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFaXmjb5GJ0)…he always showed flashes. Never really got to take the reins though. The opportunity he's gotten in Phoenix is something he should've gotten right when he came in the league, instead of having to be on the same team with Kidd. If Phoenix hadn't picked him but Charlotte, with the next pick, did, he could've been the starter next to Rice, Divac, Mason, Curry…his career path would've been drastically different.

I don't actually compare his career to any basketball players. I think Steve Young is actually the closest thing to Nash. Their career trajectories are pretty much the same. I don't get all the hate that Nash was never this good and that it's all the system, blah blah blah…I don't see the same criticism on Chauncey Billups, who never even averaged 6 assists until Flip came.

Basketball is one sport where there is plenty of reverse racism, as non-black players are always looked at more skeptically than black players, and foreign ones even more so. If Nash was black and from New York, yet had the same exact career, probably be getting hyped as the greatest athlete in the history of mankind. He'd have a $100million shoe deal and be on the cover of Slam every other month.

Quote:
The Suns do have more All-Stars, true, but to me the Mavericks are still the deeper team. It is hard to compare the two rosters by simply saying "Oh Nash has 2 all-stars and Dirk has none" because the balance is different. The Suns are top heavy with a 6 or 7 man core group of talented guys, while the Mavs have more talent 1 through 12 averaged out. Basically the talent level of the two teams is a wash. Maybe this is just my opinion, who knows.

No, I completely agree. The Mavs have point guards, swingmen, big guys, scorers, defenders…they have a far better balance and traditional makeup than the Suns. 9 or 10 guys can play well any given game. The Suns are pretty much just a 6 man team.

Last edited by Ricardo Tubbs : 01-25-2007 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 01-25-2007, 09:57 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FabCasablancas

It's because the Mavs didn't have the incredible talent the Suns do.. and they didn't complement Nash as much.. again.. that's GMing.. not Nash.

you are idiot on so many levels that the only comeback you will have for me is to accuse me of being TMOGE.

Lets go through this paragraph piece by piece and highlight the ignorance shall we? BTW I only skimmed over your post, so I can only imagine the nuggets of idioticy I missed.

Quote:
If Nash was so great why didn't he look this good on the Mavs?
actully he did, he was all NBA twice with the Mavs making him one of the elite players in the league (top 10-15 player).
Secondly, he had to share the spotlight with a bunch of catch and shoot players like Toine, Finley, Dirk, Jamison etc...who (with the exception of Jamison) have all been big time scorers in this league and all stars and not used to playing in a system, but more used to being the man. Add to that the was no continuity on this team and they had absolute no size (Walker played a lot of center for crisesakes). It wasn't gonna work.
If anything the Mavs had more talent than the Suns do now, and more talent than the Mavs do now (Finley and Walker were big time scorers at the time). The Mavs realized this wasn't going to work (too small and scoring oriented, Nellie's product what did you expect?)so they dumped two ball hogs (Finley and Walker), went big (finally), and brought in two guys to do Nash's job. If Nash was still on the Mavs instead of Terry, they would be champs, it is not Nash's fault the Mavs went from a "ME" to an "US" team with respect to personnel and coaching after he left.

Quote:
and they didn't complement Nash as much.. again.. that's GMing.. not Nash

no its called "the right fit" and only when players have the right fit do we see how good they can really be.
Fronting on Nash because the system is designed for him to succeed is just Hatred.

And youmy friend are a HATER.

Every team in the league facilitates their star, some do better than others, but you know what, a lot of superstars don't step up, Nash stepped up, so go on hating, it aint no thing.
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Old 01-25-2007, 12:48 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElPigto
Question for the older crowd:

Did anyone ever see this potential in Nash?

It’s kinda fuzzy for me, because I was working a really crazy job and didn’t catch very many Suns games that year. I was actually very disappointed that they traded Finley. Mother visited Phoenix that year, and she asked me if there was anything I wanted while she was out there, and I said “YES! A Finley jersey! Number 4!” They ended up finding the official Suns team store, but they didn’t have any Finley jerseys. She bought me a t-shirt that looked like the jersey, and a couple minor other things.

But this is what I remember about Nash.. When he was drafted, he didn’t really look any different than a Steve Blake or Steve Logan; i.e. a smallish, white point guard who had a lot of potential. Nobody figured him to be a John Stockton or Jason Kidd, but he had a nice outside shot and a good passing game. I don’t recall anyone talking much about his midrange game, every time they talked about his shooting they would talk about his three-point shot. His rookie year in Phoenix I remember him behind behind Kidd and Kevin Johnson in the rotation, and people talked about how he wouldn’t get any minutes, but he’d probably be learning quite a bit in practice from Kidd. He was starting to show some flashes of becoming a good player while still in Phoenix, a few highlights here and there, and tons of potential. He was injured right around the time that he was traded to Dallas, and I remember there being a lot of question as to his durability, and how well he’d come back from the injuries. In particular, I remember a Slam magazine article from the offseason about him, where he was talking about how hard he had been working on his game, etc. His first couple seasons in Dallas were nothing astonishing, but he definitely wasn’t a scrub. Around the time Dirk was drafted was the time I started seeing him play more of his “soccer style” of basketball with constant movement, but that’s mainly because I finally started seeing Dallas games other than when they’d and play the Bulls. He just kept getting better and better each year, and even when he was injured, he seemed to come back better than he was before the injury, as if he was working on all sorts of things in his head and when he got back, he just kept putting the pieces together.

Anyone who tells you that they honestly believed Steve Nash would be an MVP caliber player from the beginning is an absolute liar. Although, there were people who were saying Steve Logan was going to revolutionize the league, and Louis Bullock was going to shatter all of the shooting/scoring records in the league, and Chad Austin was going to be the next Calvin Murphy, and Paul McPherson was going to drop 40 a night (that last one was me and my wishful thinking), so there could’ve been some homer nut from Santa Clara waving the Nash flag from the start, but no.. nobody ever thought he’d be as good as he’s showing this season.

And despite the mass conspiracy against Nash getting -any- MVPs, he keeps improving every year. This year is his best year yet, in my opinion. He’s making Suns games look like Globetrotter games. I liked Nash from the day he was drafted, although I never saw him play at Santa Clara, but I never thought he’d be this good.
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Old 01-25-2007, 01:35 PM   #36
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Why is Magic hardly ever hated on for being better than he is because of the system? The guy played with all-stars and in an up-tempo system. He had a HOF center that is better than Amare. A HOF finisher in James Worthy that was better than Marion, and great defensive players to take the load off him on defense. I'm not comparing him to Nash nor am I saying he's overrated, but Nash gets bashed for being in the same kind of situation.
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Old 01-25-2007, 01:38 PM   #37
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You have a point except for the fact Magic is the most talented player in NBA history. No amount of talent will take that away from him.
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Old 01-25-2007, 01:43 PM   #38
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kwajo, the mavs arent that much deeper. The mavs have an 8 man rotation just like the suns do(when thomas is healthy) and their first 3 off the bench arent any better than the suns. Lets actually look at this not by position but by best player second best player etc...

Amare>Josh
Marion>Jet
Barbosa>Devin
Diaw>Damp
Bell>George
Thomas<Stackhouse
James Jones=Buckner

So the only advantage the mavs have is a less athletic stephen hunter that they have been trying to phase out of the lineup and stackhouse over thomas. Yeah the mavs are just as talented...
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Old 01-25-2007, 01:48 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i seen hippos
You have a point except for the fact Magic is the most talented player in NBA history. No amount of talent will take that away from him.

I agree, but take away his teammates and system, who knows if he'd have the individual accomplishments he has? Without his individual accomplishments, no one would view him as the legend he is today, as talented as he was.
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Old 01-25-2007, 02:14 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElPigto
Question for the older crowd:

Did anyone ever see this potential in Nash?
yes, i remember when phoenix first drafted him, he was one of my fav. players. you could really tell he was very talented, but had to sit behind the wife beater.

great player+ spoonfeeds his teamates, runs the show > great player. (nash > dirk)

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Old 01-25-2007, 02:18 PM   #41
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Black people, stop hatin on Nash. Basketball belongs to white Canadians because James Naismith, the inventor, was one. Deal with it.
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Old 01-25-2007, 02:36 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JtotheIzzo
you are idiot on so many levels that the only comeback you will have for me is to accuse me of being TMOGE.

Lets go through this paragraph piece by piece and highlight the ignorance shall we? BTW I only skimmed over your post, so I can only imagine the nuggets of idioticy I missed.


actully he did, he was all NBA twice with the Mavs making him one of the elite players in the league (top 10-15 player).
Secondly, he had to share the spotlight with a bunch of catch and shoot players like Toine, Finley, Dirk, Jamison etc...who (with the exception of Jamison) have all been big time scorers in this league and all stars and not used to playing in a system, but more used to being the man. Add to that the was no continuity on this team and they had absolute no size (Walker played a lot of center for crisesakes). It wasn't gonna work.
If anything the Mavs had more talent than the Suns do now, and more talent than the Mavs do now (Finley and Walker were big time scorers at the time). The Mavs realized this wasn't going to work (too small and scoring oriented, Nellie's product what did you expect?)so they dumped two ball hogs (Finley and Walker), went big (finally), and brought in two guys to do Nash's job. If Nash was still on the Mavs instead of Terry, they would be champs, it is not Nash's fault the Mavs went from a "ME" to an "US" team with respect to personnel and coaching after he left.



no its called "the right fit" and only when players have the right fit do we see how good they can really be.
Fronting on Nash because the system is designed for him to succeed is just Hatred.

And youmy friend are a HATER.

Every team in the league facilitates their star, some do better than others, but you know what, a lot of superstars don't step up, Nash stepped up, so go on hating, it aint no thing.

this is a great post, J, that brings up a rarely emphasized point. for a star to elevate his team, his teammates have to match up to the skills he brings to the table. if you gave switched shaq with nash, what would happen? nash doesn't complement wade (wants the ball in hand), walker (wants the ball in hand), or williams (wants the ball in hand) particularly well. they could run and gun some, but they'd be nowhere near what the suns are today. shaq (healthy shaq) could create open shots for marion, bell, and barbosa, but he would basically be in amare's way, and the team's running game would falter with him.

the star makes the game easier for his role players, but it only works when the role players complement the star. in the case of guys like bird and magic, they could play a lot of offensive styles but needed defensive stalwarts to compensate for their weaknesses. shaq needs shooters and clutch performers. mj needed smart players who moved without the ball and passed and rebounded well. nash needs runners and gunners who can defend. dirk needs shooters who can get their own and bigs who can bang for him as well as strong pick and roll guards to best utilize his offensive dominance.

and of course everybody needs a good coach. last year i think riley made some adjustments to the officiating that avery wasn't ready for, but i'd bet money this year avery has everything in order. i watched a special on the 1999 spurs last night, and it was cool to hear avery keeping everybody focused like a second coach.
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Old 01-25-2007, 02:48 PM   #43
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The only problem I have with Nash is he didn't deserve his first MVP. I think a big part of the reason he won it was because the voters didn't believe he'd ever have a season like that again.

Now, two years later, he's probably the legitimate MVP for the second year in a row, and the voters probably wish they would have given Nash's first one to Shaq.
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Old 01-25-2007, 02:51 PM   #44
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Can someone outline why Shaq deserved the MVP over Nash a couple years ago.

All I've ever heard is how he came to Miami and made them contender...but that's just what Nash did with Phoenix.

So why else did Shaq deserve it?
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Old 01-25-2007, 06:30 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JtotheIzzo
you are idiot on so many levels that the only comeback you will have for me is to accuse me of being TMOGE.

Lets go through this paragraph piece by piece and highlight the ignorance shall we? BTW I only skimmed over your post, so I can only imagine the nuggets of idioticy I missed.


actully he did, he was all NBA twice with the Mavs making him one of the elite players in the league (top 10-15 player).
Secondly, he had to share the spotlight with a bunch of catch and shoot players like Toine, Finley, Dirk, Jamison etc...who (with the exception of Jamison) have all been big time scorers in this league and all stars and not used to playing in a system, but more used to being the man. Add to that the was no continuity on this team and they had absolute no size (Walker played a lot of center for crisesakes). It wasn't gonna work.
If anything the Mavs had more talent than the Suns do now, and more talent than the Mavs do now (Finley and Walker were big time scorers at the time). The Mavs realized this wasn't going to work (too small and scoring oriented, Nellie's product what did you expect?)so they dumped two ball hogs (Finley and Walker), went big (finally), and brought in two guys to do Nash's job. If Nash was still on the Mavs instead of Terry, they would be champs, it is not Nash's fault the Mavs went from a "ME" to an "US" team with respect to personnel and coaching after he left.



no its called "the right fit" and only when players have the right fit do we see how good they can really be.
Fronting on Nash because the system is designed for him to succeed is just Hatred.


And youmy friend are a HATER.

Every team in the league facilitates their star, some do better than others, but you know what, a lot of superstars don't step up, Nash stepped up, so go on hating, it aint no thing.

You are a f#cking moron... you don't know your a$$ from you elbow.. the bolded portion of your post discounts your entire argument and proves I am correct.. MVP's don't need an ideal team to be MVP worthy.. that's why they are MVP's you dipsh!t. That is precisely WHY Dirk has been MVP over Nash since he went to Phoenix.. Nash has the perfect team around him and Dirk doesn't.. yet Dirk's team has been just as successful if not more.

The bottom line is that even with Nash having the perfect system and players complementing him.. he STILL couldn't win the championship or even get past Dirk.. yet you think he's MVP? How does that make ANY goddamn sense? haha Wow.. just unbelievably poor logic..
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