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Old 08-09-2012, 07:19 PM   #106
jlauber
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Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

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Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
jlauber is very insecure about those 3 players (Bird, Kareem, and Hakeem)
The reason why? Because they have won more than Wilt, or as much (Hakeem).

So he does everything he can to try to dub them as career losers and playoff chokers, when get this: They have won MORE than his beloved Wilt, who according to him is not a choker, not a loser, clutch, and better than all 3.

And proven, as well.
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Old 08-09-2012, 07:20 PM   #107
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Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

Craziness.

No player in history makes me insecure about Bird's place in the game, and we all have our favorites.
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Old 08-09-2012, 11:55 PM   #108
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Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

Jerry West is GOAT game 7 performer.. averages like 30+ ppg in game 7s
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:06 AM   #109
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Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

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Originally Posted by BlueandGold
Jerry West is GOAT game 7 performer.. averages like 30+ ppg in game 7s

He was certainly among the best ever. Still, as great as he was in the majority of his post-seasons, he had a poor game seven in the '70 Finals (Frazier just embarrassed him in that game.) And, in the season in which he finally won a ring, he had a post-season in which he shot .376. Which was bad enough, but he shot an even worse .325 in the Finals. Had it not been for a dominating post-season by Chamberlain that year, and West would have retired ringless.
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:21 AM   #110
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Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

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Originally Posted by Hands of Iron
Alright. I'll talk to you with respect and give you my view on it and some of it will be repeated from what I've already stated in some other threads too. Starting to see the point of the copy-and-paste.

I don't know if you can really be overrated if you've got a legitimate case as one of the top ten basketball players to ever live, J. At that point, we're just nitpicking and arguing to argue because that's what forums are for, I guess. I can honestly get on with some good hearted debate but there's no need for all the vitriol. You can say HOF-laden rosters and I can counter with the fact that McHale and Parish - combined, over their careers - made all of a single All-NBA 1st Team Selection. Here people act as if they're in the discussion as the greatest PF and C to play the game, like Parish was able to summon Chamberlain-like performances or something. These guys were very good players instrumental in helping Bird win titles and in turn, got their ticket punched into the HOF. They didn't have ATG caliber careers on their own individual play and accomplishments. Granted, McHale had some amazing footwork in the post. He won "only" 3 rings because he faced some wickedly good -some even all-time - teams in the form of Philadelphia, Detroit and of course the Lakers, who had the more talented and athletic rosters throughout the decade and easier competition in the Western Conference.

Let's remember Bird joined a Celtics team that had gone 29-53 the previous season and saw a 32-game turn-around in Bird's rookie season in which he won the ROY and finished 4th in league MVP voting. Magic wasn't even put on a ballot if I remember correctly. Do I give Bird ALL the credit for that? Of course, not. He was certainly the most significant part of it though. There was no McHale, Parish or gasp, Dennis Johnson on that roster and it was one of the few times Bird got to prove his individual value in retrospect. The other would be the season following 1988 in which the Celtics had gone 57-25 to 42-40 the next with Bird out virtually the entire season. I honestly don't see all that much shame with Bird's playoff "failures" from 1990-1992 in which he had HCA in two of them because we both know the back ailments he suffered in '89 effectively ended his prime play, immediately.

It just feels as though you're nitpicking things pertaining to agenda. With Bird, it's having HOF laden rosters and with Olajuwon it's a lack of 50-win seasons and MVP Voting. Since I already addressed the HOF talk, why don't we focus on Bird's 50-win seasons and MVP voting?

Boston Celtics Season-by-Season:
1978: 32-50
1979: 29-53
~ Bird joins Boston Celtics ~
1980: 61-21
1981: 62-20
1982: 63-19
1983: 56-26
1984: 62-20
1985: 63-19
1986: 67-15
1987: 59-23
1988: 57-25
1989: 42-40 (Bird misses 76 games)
1990: 52-30
1991: 56-26
1992: 51-31

Bird's MVP Voting Results:
1980: 4th (Rookie Season)
1981: 2nd
1982: 2nd
1983: 2nd
1984: WON
1985: WON
1986: WON
1987: 3rd
1988: 2nd
1989: Misses 76 games due to career-threatening back injuries. Never the same player again.
1990: 10th
1991: 9th

He is ranked third all-time in MVP Voting Shares behind only Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.



Bird did just about everything at an ATG level on the floor short of man-to-man defense. An elite scorer, shooter, excellent efficiency from the field overall, long range and free throw line; dangerous from everywhere on the floor, off the dribble and playing off the ball, an excellent rebounder, arguably the greatest passing forward of all-time, clutch as all hell, an instinctive, all-hustle team defender... on and on. All players have their failures, bad series, bad games. It's all relative and to be honest, Bird probably doesn't have a case for and isn't considered GOAT by much of anybody J unless it's pertaining to the wide-range of skills and value he has on the court, so ease up on the scrutiny unless you've been personally slighted by him or something, I guess.

Over his absolute prime years (1984-88) he averaged 27 ppg, 10 rpg, 7 apg, 2spg on 51/40/90 efficiency. Over a career, he's the only 20/10/5 player in league history and he actually improves on that criteria by a good margin (24.3/10.0/6.3). He isn't necessarily lacking for hardware validation either: 3x NBA Champion (1981, 1984, 1986), 3x NBA MVP (1984, 1985, 1986), 2x NBA Finals MVP (1984, 1986), NBA Rookie of the Year (1980), 9x All-NBA1 (1980-88), 1x All-NBA2 (1990), 3x All-D2 (1982, 1983, 1984).

I think maybe his biggest statistical accomplishment could be his two single-season 50/40/90 years. It's an unbelievably exclusive club already and even though Nash has done it four times, Bird did it at far and away the highest PPG of anyone and in back-to-back seasons: 28.1 and 29.9 respectively. Closest would be Dirk at 24.6 -- Nobody else in the club (Nash, Miller, Price) put up over 20. Hardware wise? Without a doubt, the 3-consecutive MVP's which was only previously done by Russell and Chamberlain - Arguably the two Greatest Centers to ever play - and hasn't been replicated since.

He wasn't too bad.

Excellent post. I know that I come off as "anti-Bird" here, but I do acknowledge that he was a top-11 player (and perhaps as high as 8th.)

However, it amazes me how some here rank Bird over Magic, who just plain had a better overall career. And Magic was better H2H, and more "clutch" H2H, as well.

Then, even more shocking, are those that claim that Bird was "clutch", and then turn around and rip Wilt as a "choking" loser.

Clutch?

How about this...

Quote:
The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined 23-60, or .383, while shooting 18-33 himself (.545.)

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.

With the possible exception of Jordan, I challenge anyone here to provide a player who performed better in their post-season career, in "elimination" and "series clinching" performances. Not only that, but give me the performances of their OPPOSING players, as well.
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Old 08-10-2012, 01:34 AM   #111
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Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
He was certainly among the best ever. Still, as great as he was in the majority of his post-seasons, he had a poor game seven in the '70 Finals (Frazier just embarrassed him in that game.) And, in the season in which he finally won a ring, he had a post-season in which he shot .376. Which was bad enough, but he shot an even worse .325 in the Finals. Had it not been for a dominating post-season by Chamberlain that year, and West would have retired ringless.
Please.. West carried chamberlin through some of the finals in the 70s.. Chamberlin completely shrunk in the 70-71 finals and West is the only player in the 50+ year history of the league to win FMVP in a losing effort.

You have a lot of basketball experience/knowledge but why do you continue to diminish other stars in the 70s while propping up wilt?
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Old 08-10-2012, 01:48 AM   #112
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Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

Worthy's game7 performance of 1988 Finals vs. Frazier's game7 performance of 1970 Finals
What do you guys think?
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Old 08-11-2012, 12:37 AM   #113
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Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

I can live with Bird's performances during his absolute prime years from 1984-88 over which he was involved in five Game 7's: 32.2 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 7.2 apg, 50.4% FG.
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Old 08-11-2012, 12:39 AM   #114
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Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
He was certainly among the best ever. Still, as great as he was in the majority of his post-seasons, he had a poor game seven in the '70 Finals (Frazier just embarrassed him in that game.) And, in the season in which he finally won a ring, he had a post-season in which he shot .376. Which was bad enough, but he shot an even worse .325 in the Finals. Had it not been for a dominating post-season by Chamberlain that year, and West would have retired ringless.
Oh My

See 1969
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Old 08-11-2012, 12:40 AM   #115
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Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

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Originally Posted by jlauber
And proven, as well.
Nope. Cherry picked stats, and biased bullshit from an old insecure man is more like like it.
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Old 08-11-2012, 12:47 AM   #116
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Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odinn
Worthy's game7 performance of 1988 Finals vs. Frazier's game7 performance of 1970 Finals
What do you guys think?

Box score had Frazier at 36pts 7rbs 19ast.

Except he didn't have 19 assists. This was broken down in another forum, a few posters saw the entire footage of that game 7 vs LA and all of them agreed Frazier only had 7-9 assists in that game, not 19. Cant find the link right now, but I will try to look for it.
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Old 08-11-2012, 12:48 AM   #117
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Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

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Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
Nope. Cherry picked stats, and biased bullshit from an old insecure man is more like like it.

Perhaps, but 84-88 certainly is not in regards to Bird. He was at his absolute peak over those years and the above is what happened. Thanks for all the info in this thread.
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Old 08-11-2012, 12:53 AM   #118
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Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

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Originally Posted by 1987_Lakers
Box score had Frazier at 36pts 7rbs 19ast.

Except he didn't have 19 assists. This was broken down in another forum, a few posters saw the entire footage of that game 7 vs LA and all of them agreed Frazier only had 7-9 assists in that game, not 19. Cant find the link right now, but I will try to look for it.

video

Discussion

Last edited by jlip : 08-11-2012 at 12:56 AM.
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Old 01-07-2014, 03:45 PM   #119
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Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

2012 Eastern Conference Finals- Game 7

Lebron James: 32 pts, 8 reb, 4 ast, 2 stl, 1 blk, 2 tov, 8-17 FG, 1-2 3PT, 15-16 FT (W)
Dwyane Wade: 21 pts, 9 reb, 1 ast, 2 stl, 1 blk, 4 tov, 7-17 FG, 7-7 FT (W)

2013 NBA Finals- Game 7

Tim Duncan: 24 pts, 12 reb, 2 ast, 4 stl, 1 blk, 3 tov, 8-18 FG, 8-8 FT (L)

Lebron James: 37 pts, 12 reb, 4 ast, 2 stl, 2 tov, 12-23 FG, 5-10 3PT, 8-8 FT (W)

Dwyane Wade: 23 pts, 10 reb, 1 ast, 1 stl, 2 blk, 4 tov, 11-21 FG, 1-2 FT (W)
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Old 01-07-2014, 03:47 PM   #120
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Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

Big dick game James Worthy
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